Supreme Court: Gay Marriage is now the Law of the Land

Will the real pastors please stand up?

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Five unelected judges have spat in God’s face and declared war on marriage and family. This is now full-on open warfare. God have mercy on America and the world. Link to the story here.

Berean Research has this White Paper with excellent resources for you and your church.

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55 Responses to Supreme Court: Gay Marriage is now the Law of the Land

  1. Manny1962 says:

    I knew it, no surprises there. The "judges" of this nation have just made sodomy the law of the land, saying that scripture is mistaken. Well, let's pray because now that it's official, the floodgates are open. America your judges have just sealed your fate. We will start seeing the repercussions soon enough. God has given this nation over to a reprobate mind, He has abandoned the nation, it's up to the bride, the last vestige of salt, to proclaim the truth as the light fades and darkness envelopes. Folks, here we are, God help us all, specially the children.

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    • Manny1962 says:

      Lyn, I couldn't begin to tell you how depressed and heartbroken I've been today. I picked up my son from summer camp and the first thing he said was "dad what's wrong," I guess it's easy to tell. So I told him what had happened and his reply was straight to the point, "this country is eroding fast." That was from a 12 year old, sad adults can't see what's happened. This is a serious somber day, a day of prayer, I wonder how many Christians realize this.

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  2. Manny1962 says:

    2 Timothy 3

    "But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves"

    I would beseech every brother and sister in Christ to pray tonight, there are perilous times coming, I fear we will be persecuted and darkness is falling. First Roe vs Wade, now Sodomy the law of the land. Please pray for the children and for all of us.

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  3. Joshuascamp says:

    And so it begins. The WordPress support forum is going nuts with admins shutting down comments. Seems that the owners of WordPress wanted to celebrate and placed a rainbow banner across everyone's administration pages. The forum is our only voice to complain, and yes we are.

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  4. Manny1962 says:

    My wife told me there were celebrations in downtown where she works, expect parties, music festivals, and look for what so called pastors like Rick Warren will say, will he condemn this or keep quiet, every God fearing pastor should issue a statement condemning what happened today! If this Sunday your pastor doesn't preach on this beware you might have a wolf in sheep's clothing! Watch for the reactions across the country, see what they'll say, check their web sites, this is a great day for discerning who is real and who is not!

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  5. rosinavoz says:

    My heart is broken for my grandchildren…the propaganda that will be pushed on them by our society and the media. Will we still have the right to homeschool in a few years? Will Christian schools and colleges be able to remain open if they continue to stay true to what the bible teaches about marriage? My heart aches too for my son and his wife and the challenges they will face in light of this ruling. Those five judges will have to stand before the Supreme Judge of all one day. They will have answer for what they did today and I wouldn't want to be in their shoes. How arrogant to think they have the power to redefine the institution of marriage. A sad day, but a wake up call for Christians to pray fervently and to stand for truth and not to back down.

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    • tonibrown64 says:

      I don't think homeschooling will continue much longer, as anyone who believes the Bible will soon be considered the most radical kooks in the world, too mentally unstable to teach their own kids.
      The so called 'Christain" schools will be fine as long as they fall in line quick…Third Reich style enforcement and thought control is coming.

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  6. Manny1962 says:

    I've been depressed all day, then I realized this is a great opportunity to stand up for God. It's also an opportunity to see how pastors react to this open rebellion against God's word, everyone in a position of authority must be held accountable, there's no excuses now, either they support God's word or they support Sodom and Gomorrah. These will be revealing days indeed. Now you will see who stands for what! Please everyone, pray tonight, wherever you are, pray for the children and the bride, pray for true pastors everywhere, they along with us have been handed a declaration of war, remember how Paul instructed us to wage warfare, with fervent prayer, with faith and with the knowledge that God is in control, not the Supreme Court. And lastly, pray for those enslaved by homosexuality, there are some that will come out of that abomination, by God's grace.

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    • rosinavoz says:

      Good words, Manny! Yes, we must not forget to pray for those enslaved by the sin of homosexuality as this will cause many to go deeper into that lifestyle and listen less often to any qualms of conscience they may still have left. We need to pray as never before. We are here 'for such a time as this' and need to be calling out to God in their behalf, that, in His mercy, He might save some.

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  7. Sheryl says:

    Even so, come quickly, Lord Jesus. Looking forward to the blessed hope, the appearance of Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior. This wicked world is not my home and I pray departure is imminent. If not, 6 feet under is a good option, doesn't matter to me. I'm just ready to leave this mess behind and experience my Father's house.

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  8. Pat says:

    Regarding the White Paper, it begins by stating that 1 Cor 6:9-11 teaches that one cannot be a homosexual and be a Christian simultaneously. This would imply that if we were to minister to a homosexual and present the Gospel, and they respond positively by believing that Christ died for their sins personally (past, present, and future), then they will stop that homosexual behavior within a very short term (perhaps no immediately, but realize, in being a new creature, they have to stop it, regardless whether they have truly learned the truth of the Word that teaches homosexuality, like stealing, murder, gossip, maligning, etc… is a sin and should be turned (repented from) since new believers are children that need to learn the Word as we all need to continue to do.

    My question is that how long do we give a newly converted homosexual to stop the behavior? How much grace do we give them as they take time to learn that this sin is wrong and they need to turn away? What if they turn for a time, then revert? What about all the other sins mentioned in this passage? Can you truly say that you have fully turned from idolatry? What about gossip, etc…. At what point cannot one determine they have truly persevered to the end? If you say "only God knows" then you cannot ever say anyone is a real believer because you absolutely cannot positively measure whether anyone has achieved these arbitrary measure of being a Christian.

    Perhaps these passages are not talking about whether one is a Christian, but whether one is living as a member of the Church? If someone says they are a believer, are we not to treat them as such? What tests would you put them through to test them in terms of whether they are in the family? Many unbelievers can put believers to shame when it comes to outward activities that look very Christian while many Christians struggle (the Apostle Paul being one and it is very well documented) with the Christian life since the darkness of Satan's cosmic system is always attacking God's Church.

    In conclusion, I suggest that you stay away from the Calvinistic, reformed theology that teaches the fruit inspection and "rightly divide the Word of Truth" by not reading into a passage what it doesn't say. Homosexuals deserve grace as much as liars, gossipers, maligners, idolaters, adulterers, etc… and I must say that if you would seek to disassociate with a blatant homosexual who says he is a believer because Scripture teaches that you should be careful whom you associate lest you fall into a similar thinking and sin, then you should also watch the gossipers, adulterers, maligners, drunks, idolaters, etc… with as much zeal.

    Much is to be learned now that this particular sin has been applauded by so many in this country, even often the Christian sitting next to you today in your local church.

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    • Manny1962 says:

      Of course those other sins are just as blatant and wicked. However, I don't recall God destroying two entire cities for gossiping, drunkenness, infidelity, etc., what is there to be learned about the sin of homosexuality? Aren't there sins that lead to death and some that don't? Homosexuals are called dogs in scripture, it sounds harsh, but that's what male temple prostitutes were called. There are very nice atheists, as there are very contentious Christians, that has nothing to do with salvation. Paul calls all to examine themselves to see if they're in the faith, habitually sinning with no remorse or thought should scare anyone, of course unless they're deceived. Your sin will find you out, you can only lie and try to get away with something for so long, you can lie to others, but you can't lie to the Lord. The bible says don't associate with anyone who calls himself a brother, but is not……….. A homosexual who has converted and not acting on his perversion is to be accepted as a brother, if he/she decides to stay in that life blatantly while saying they're Christian, they're to be shunned. Same for adulterers, etc………

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      • Manny1962 says:

        There's no such thing as a carnal Christian, either you're filled with the Holy Spirit and not fulfilling the lust of the flesh or you're not. We confess to God daily for the sins we commit……The Holy Spirit compels you, that's why our conciensce accuses us, walking with world is not walking with the Lord. If you persist in living in habitual sin, I would question if your conversion was genuine.

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      • Manny1962 says:

        this might be helpful:

        Question: "Does the Greek word arsenokoitai in 1 Corinthians 6:9 really mean ‘homosexuals’ or something else?"

        Answer: In 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 Paul lists some sinful lifestyles that give evidence that a person is not saved: “Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men . . . will inherit the kingdom of God.” In other words, a practicing, unrepentant idolater, adulterer, or homosexual is fooling himself if he thinks he is going to heaven. Christians are saved from such sins.

        There are some interpreters today who object to lumping homosexuals in with the other sinners listed in this passage. The wording “men who have sex with men” is unclear, they say, and should not be construed as a condemnation of all same-sex activity. In an attempt to make homosexual behavior compatible with Christianity, they attempt to redefine the Greek word.

        The phrase “men who have sex with men” (translated “homosexuals” in the NASB) is a translation of the Greek word arsenokoitai. Those who object to this translation say that arsenokoitai does not refer to all homosexual relationships but only to those involving abuse, coercion, or unfaithfulness. They say the word does not refer to “loving, faithful” same-sex relationships.

        Arsenokoitai is a compound word: arseno is the word for “a male,” and koitai is the word for “mat” or “bed.” Put the two halves together, and the word means “a male bed”—that is, a person who makes use of a “male-only bed” or a “bed for males.” And, truthfully, that’s all the information we need to understand the intent of 1 Corinthians 6:9.

        The word meaning “bed” carries a sexual connotation in this context—the Greek koitai is the source of our English word coitus (“sexual intercourse”). The conclusion is that the word arsenokoitai is referring to homosexuals—men who are in bed with other men, engaging in same-gender sexual activity.

        The notion that some homosexual relationships are accepted is not even hinted at in this passage. The men’s commitment level or the presence of “love” is not addressed. The idea that the condemned same-sex activity is linked to economic exploitation or abuse is also a forced reading with no textual basis.

        Paul’s reference to “homosexuals,” together with a reference to “effeminate” men in the same verse (in the NASB), effectively covers both active and passive homosexual behavior. God’s Word is not open to personal interpretation in this matter. Homosexuality is wrong; it always has been, and it always will be.

        Just two verses later, 1 Corinthians 6:11 says, “And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God” (emphasis added). This statement negates the idea of “homosexual Christianity” being acceptable to God. Paul tells the Corinthian believers that practices such as homosexuality were evidences of their former life before Christ. Now they have been born again, and they have new, holy (and wholly new) affections and desires. By the life-changing grace of God, the Corinthians’ new life stands in opposition to the way they used to live

        Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/arsenokoitai.html#ixz

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      • intenseflana says:

        What is difficult about your statement concerning the Holy Spirit is that you admit He "compels" you, but where do you find "compel" associated with the work of the Holy Spirit? In John 16, He convicts, which means to bring to mind for consideration something that which is opposite your intentions. You must be careful not to read your theology into the Scriptures and let them interpret themselves. I agree, walking with the world is not walking with the Lord, but you can be a believer and walk with the world, else what is Hebrews 12 even there for? God makes it clear that if you are not disciplined, then you are not even His child; therefore, He disciplines, but you are saying that discipline isn't needed since if you sin "habitually" (which no one but God can define when you have turned something into a habit), then God won't discipline, because you are not His child. Such a theology is confusing and convoluted.

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      • intenseflana says:

        The issue isn’t the sin, it is the sinner and his status with Christ. You believe that if God hasn’t predestined him to be a member of the Church, then there is no hope for him…just that you don’t know who God arbitrarily selected. I find this is not love, but tyranny. I pray you repent of this awful version of the doctrine of election.

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    • tonibrown64 says:

      Pat-

      I don't see any room in your synopsis for the work of the indewelt Holy Spirit after re-generation. When a person is really brought from the darkness into the Light (the re-birth) they are never the same- they are not perfect and may still face temptation but they now have the Helper, the Comforter, God Almighty living inside of them that really does "keep them from falling" (Jude 1: 24).
      No one here is promoting denying grace to anyone- and the most loving thing a true believer can do for a gay person is give them the TRUTH. It is the ONLY thing that will reconcile them to God.
      Reformed Theology, the biblical truth that salvation is ALL of God, has nothing to do with your argument.

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      • intenseflana says:

        Define "really" in your statement "really brought." What does that mean? I know what you mean..you mean that when God has given you the right faith, but that doesn't matter either because God already predestined those that will come to believing, but believing isn't right either because they are not believing, but God believing for them. If I give you something, then make you do something with it, I did it, not you.

        There are so many problems with reformed theology, most of which is that you cannot address how God cannot be the author of sin, which Scripture clearly teaches is not the case!

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      • gracealone1 says:

        We have another superior intellect in our midst, aka spam artist. Please note that he is double minded or as they used to say "he speaks with forked tongue". Your nonsense won't get very far, 'cause too many here see right through you.

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      • intenseflana says:

        If those that differ with you are sarcastically considered a "superior intellect," then can you say you have figured it all out?

        I have studied intensely the reformed theological positions and they simply do not make biblical sense when you are consistent in applying the Word and allowing it to interpret itself, primarily by understanding that verses that may seem difficult to interpret become more clear when more easily interpretable verses are understood and used to interpret the less clear. This is basic hermeneutics.

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      • gracealone1 says:

        If one does not understand the complete and utter sovereignty of God, especially when it comes to the saving of a human soul, he will likewise have no chance to understand anything else that Scripture teaches. The Arminians teach that by an act of "free-will" they can choose to "be saved" or to reject eternal life. That is not in Scripture. The Arminians teach that a man must somehow "cooperate" with God so that they can "be saved". Scripture teaches that it is grace and grace alone that men are called and chosen and predestined to salvation, their will notwithstanding (there are hundreds of verses that speak directly to this as fact). The Arminians teach that a man may return to his former lost state either by some unnamed sin or simply by "opting-out" of salvation. Such unbiblical foolishness begs this question: If our Lord is unable or unwilling to keep us through our earthly days, then what guarantee can you cite (Scripture ONLY, please) that at some point you will not be booted out of heaven, either by God's choice or you own? Arminians teach that if a man does become "lost again" that he may regain his former state of salvation by "asking Jesus into his heart" a second time. The Biblical answer to this nonsense is found in Hebrews, why don't you read the whole Book and find out who God is. Arminians teach that Christ died for all men everywhere of all time and base their theory on three or four verses that they must totally mutilate to give credence to their fantasy. This same nonsense is only a step or two away from universalism as taught by Billy Graham. Blog space won't allow to even begin my rebuttal, however AW Pink (The Attributes of God and the Sovereignty of God) and John Owen (The Death of Death in the Death of Christ) will help you understand who this Holy, Sovereign God really is. It is obvious from your comments to others that you have zero knowledge of what regeneration is, so how can salvation be anything other than an intellectual pursuit?

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      • Joshuascamp says:

        Where is Arminia on the map I can't find it.

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      • Joshuascamp says:

        Actually I found godsfingrs to be quite informative, using quality scripture in discussions. Maybe he didn't hold to your theology but he did have sound basis. I miss his discussions. Intenseflana is being argumentative without scriptural basis. The same could be said to the similarity of your posts to another poster. Please be careful.

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      • rosinavoz says:

        Most of godfingers’ posts were about attacking reformed theology and reformed believers. It would have been just fine to express his opinions on the matter and engage in a friendly back and forth discussion of the issues. We tried that with him so many times and he always resorted to name calling and very sarcastic, unkind comments, accusing reformed believers of not being believers at all. Whatever good things he might have said got completely overshadowed by his hateful attitude for others on this board. I would not be surprised at all it if this is him on here again with a new name because it sure sounds like the same old attacks. He gets onto the subject of reformed theology right away and then becomes a broken record. He just cannot let it go…cannot agree to disagree and have loving respect of other believers on an issue with is not an essential to the faith. To him, it IS an essential and that is the problem. Look how he latched onto one phrase toni used her reply to Pat and used it to turn the whole conversation around to an attack on Calvinism. That was always his technique. BTW, I have never known Lyn to be ‘argumentative without scriptural basis’.

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      • Joshuascamp says:

        But Galations 5 describes free will, what do you mean? Godsfingers said he was saved by Jesus' life changing sacrifice and that salvation only comes through Him. He may not have used the specific theology words you use but his message was clear. John MacArthur is clueless as to what it means to be saved by Jesus blood, he's the one teaching two gospels.

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      • Joshuascamp says:

        I guess you're missing the "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him"

        I'm not quickened either. Not according to the dictionary, I'm getting old and slowed, if you will.

        I'm not going to get dragged into your Calvinist vs Arminian hate debate here

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      • Joshuascamp says:

        please explain spam artist?

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      • gracealone1 says:

        As in "godsfinger" and the like, if you wish to be in their camp, go ahead

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      • Joshuascamp says:

        don't understand. A spammer is one who posts unwanted comments to advertise or promote their services. This sounds more like ad hominem attacking going on here.

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      • Joshuascamp says:

        " God cannot be the author of sin, which Scripture clearly teaches is not the case! " What!!!! I suppose you believe the KJV malarky that God creates evil too???

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      • intenseflana says:

        Ok let's take this a piece at a time.

        "You cannot judge the motive of another." Well, by what someone does can clearly show their motives, and additionally, if they admit their motive, then we can judge rightly in light of Scripture. Be careful not to take 1 Cor. 2:11a out of context, if that is the verse you are using to support your statement.

        Concerning faith, read me very carefully. What do you think it means in John 3:16 for man to believe in Christ, the uniquely begotten One of God, sent as God's ultimate sign of His love for all men? If you tell me it isn't faith, then what do you do with the passages lauding believers who have believed because they haven't seen Christ directly as the Twelve did? Faith is considered a greater quality of belief than those who directly touched and walked with Christ; regardless, it takes simply belief/faith (the same you use to believe that George Washington existed though you have never seen him) to be saved and not some supernatural faith which not one shred of evidence exists in the Bible of such a faith. It is the OBJECT of faith that saves, not the faith itself.

        When someone tells me they are a believer in Christ and I have asked them whether they have believed that Christ died for their sins personally (I am not sure what repent of your sins means really as that isn't in the Bible in terms of personally salvation from hell), if they are lying to me, that is between them and God; if they are not lying, that is still between them and God; however, the way I treat them is different in term of my message and whether they are in the family of God. Believers have a different commission toward unbelievers than believers. There is overlap, but the commission is different of course.

        I am sure you can tell I am not pulling the above from any apocryphal or esoteric scriptures.

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      • Joshuascamp says:

        I guess the truth is freedom, from the curse, from the sin that plagues them. but in that truth you do need to be clear on the whole truth that in Galatians 5

        "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery."

        and

        "4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. "

        "7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.”"

        "13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. "

        "16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want."

        "19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."

        They can choose to walk back into it. They can't blame God, they can't blame the devil ( they are no longer his) it's a choice they make to go back to it.

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    • tonibrown64 says:

      Amen, Lyn!
      Nothing has been more devastating with regard to the Great Commission than "easy believism", "decisionism" and "the invitation" system that have overtaken the professing church. It cannot be found anywhere in scripture and is producing self-deceived false coverts every day! The biblical truth is that even the act of repentance (TURNING AWAY from sin) is not of ourselves but is granted by God according to scripture.
      It is vital that we submit ourselves wholly to the clear word of God and pray that the Holy Spirit will crush our personal presuppositions and opinions and replace them with his perfect word.

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      • intenseflana says:

        Choosing to believe in Christ and choosing to follow Him well are two different things. There is no way, no how you can accurately "fruit inspect" someone without some doubt as to whether perhaps someone could be a very moral unbeliever and out-give, out-care, out-philanthropize, out-you pick your word a believer. If you refer to Matthew 7, that passage, in context, refers to teachers and their fruit is what they taught. Remember, in that passage, they look like sheep, not like the wolves they are, so if you are so good at fruit inspection, how else would you know they were a wolf, except by what they teach?

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      • intenseflana says:

        If you believe that works after salvation are required, regardless if anyone can see them or not, then you believe in works salvation to be justified and become a Christian. Plain and simple.

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      • rascott247 says:

        Bingo! My experience (years and years) with reformed theologians and adherents (many brilliant) matches your assessment. RT’s peculiar view of covenant (which is not found in scripture) is the leading contributor to the need/desire to “make so many implications, conjectures, misapplications, misused word substitutions, etc….” contrary to the plain sense of scripture. RT’s reputation for being logical and consistent has always been a head scratcher for me. Try as I might, I could never fall inline. But of course, if I held to their presuppositions their interpretive scheme would seem less inconsistent and disjointed. Now for many, to question their interpretation is tantamount to unregenerate ignorance or even apostasy as you probably know full well (or will soon find out).

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    • intenseflana says:

      I am not confused and I understand the points of Calvinism and the counter remonstrants of his followers in reformed theology rather well.

      Again, there is that "truly," which is the same as "genuinely," "really," etc…. Where in Scripture is the faith in Christ to be justified from going to hell, but to be with God into eternity, qualified with such adjectives? Where? You make so many implications, conjectures, misapplications, misused word substitutions, etc…. that you don't see what Scripture clearly says, especially when comparing Scripture with Scripture? I have yet to see a reformed theologian adequate explain, in New Testament reformed theological terms how O.T believers came to believe? They cannot because they cannot rely on the crutch of the N.T. because it had to be possible from the O.T. Scriptures only which is clearly stated in 2 Tim 3:14-17.

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    • intenseflana says:

      I am replying to the last message you sent me.

      Ok let's take this a piece at a time.

      "You cannot judge the motive of another." Well, by what someone does can clearly show their motives, and additionally, if they admit their motive, then we can judge rightly in light of Scripture. Be careful not to take 1 Cor. 2:11a out of context, if that is the verse you are using to support your statement.

      Concerning faith, read me very carefully. What do you think it means in John 3:16 for man to believe in Christ, the uniquely begotten One of God, sent as God's ultimate sign of His love for all men? If you tell me it isn't faith, then what do you do with the passages lauding believers who have believed because they haven't seen Christ directly as the Twelve did? Faith is considered a greater quality of belief than those who directly touched and walked with Christ; regardless, it takes simply belief/faith (the same you use to believe that George Washington existed though you have never seen him) to be saved and not some supernatural faith which not one shred of evidence exists in the Bible of such a faith. It is the OBJECT of faith that saves, not the faith itself.

      When someone tells me they are a believer in Christ and I have asked them whether they have believed that Christ died for their sins personally (I am not sure what repent of your sins means really as that isn't in the Bible in terms of personally salvation from hell), if they are lying to me, that is between them and God; if they are not lying, that is still between them and God; however, the way I treat them is different in term of my message and whether they are in the family of God. Believers have a different commission toward unbelievers than believers. There is overlap, but the commission is different of course.

      I am sure you can tell I am not pulling the above from any apocryphal or esoteric scriptures.

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  9. intenseflana says:

    Regarding the White Paper, I think that you will also have to say that all sinners cannot be Christians based on this interpretation of 1 Cor 6:9. Please do not read into that which is not there and not being said. Inheriting the Kingdom doesn't mean entering. If it does, please point me to the exegesis and hermeneutical scholarship performed to prove this.

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  10. rosinavoz says:

    Thomas Jefferson warned about Oilgarchy:

    "To consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions [is] a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy. Our judges are as honest as other men and not more so. They have with others the same passions for party, for power, and the privilege of their corps. Their maxim is boni judicis est ampliare jurisdictionem [good justice is broad jurisdiction], and their power the more dangerous as they are in office for life and not responsible, as the other functionaries are, to the elective control. The Constitution has erected no such single tribunal, knowing that to whatever hands confided, with the corruptions of time and party, its members would become despots. It has more wisely made all the departments co-equal and co-sovereign within themselves." –Thomas Jefferson to William C. Jarvis, 1820

    "[How] to check these unconstitutional invasions of… rights by the Federal judiciary? Not by impeachment in the first instance, but by a strong protestation of both houses of Congress that such and such doctrines advanced by the Supreme Court are contrary to the Constitution; and if afterwards they relapse into the same heresies, impeach and set the whole adrift. For what was the government divided into three branches, but that each should watch over the others and oppose their usurpations?" –Thomas Jefferson to Nathaniel Macon, 1821

    Well, we all know what he stated in the last quote will never happen because Congress does not do its job of ensuring proper balance of power between the three branches. This congress is too wimpy…constantly caving in to the President. They have the power to reign in the Supreme Court, but will never use it. They let Obama Care slide through. They will let this go as well with only a whimper or two.

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    • Joshuascamp says:

      I posted two linked about how the matter was actually settled decades ago, that the SCOTUS had no jurisdiction in state affairs. And that finding was made by the "Warren Court" of all things.

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  11. gracealone1 says:

    Pat,
    A couple of things for your consideration; #1 In Genesis 9 we have the story of why there is a curse on Ham, the son of Noah. Noah was drunk and Ham took sexual advantage of his own father and was cursed by Noah shortly thereafter. Gen. 9:20-25 are clear. #2 In 1 Cor. 5 another story of incest (a man had sex with his step-mother) resulting in that man being turned over to satan for the destruction of his flesh so that his spirit would be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus. This man was saved according to 1 Cor.5:4&5. So we see that our Lord takes very seriously any type of sexual sin committed by His own—there are always consequences. That brings us to your premise that a person can be saved and continue in their sin of choice and that without any consequences. We do not know all of the reasons why the Lord hates the sin of homosexuality so much, but a good start would be to recognize that the acts they perform on each other are done in mockery to God and His order of creation. It is 'in-your-face' rebellion of the rankest sort. Many people rightly refer to Rom. 1:18-32 as a current template for the demise of our nation. The case could easily be made that we entered the last of the three "and God gave them over" some time in the sixties with the "sexual revolution". If that is so, we've had ample time (50 plus years) to repent, but in stead we sink deeper into depravity. [The gracious Longsuffering of our Holy God will not endure forever.]

    To say that a person is not delivered from their sins upon salvation is a typical contention of those who believe that they were saved by an act of their free will and not solely be the grace of God. Many are the Scriptures that teach that when born again, a man is delivered from the habitual, uncontrollable, unstoppable, and relentless cruelty of his former sins (Rom. 6:14 speaks plainly). To even hint that a child of God is left to fend for himself against sin is an insult to the Spirit of Grace (and a dangerous thing to do). The entire Book of 1John was written to and for believers (1John 5:13). 1John 3 tells us that sin is no longer our master, and if it is, we may claim to be saved but in fact are not. [John IS NOT referring to 'sinless perfection' but to the grace afforded every child of God to be free from sin. Heb. 12 :1&2 helps here, too]. Question: Do you want people to believe that God loved them enough to save them from the eternal penalty of sin (John 3:16) but not from the ravages of it's consequences while we live out our remaining days on this earth? Where is the love in that? A new born Christian is supposed to hate sin and your premise would us have held captive by sin's power until the day we die. No thank you! For God to not deliver us from the power of present sin is the ultimate cruelty, sadistic, and vindictive; not the God of Scripture. Many will attest to the instantaneous and permanent deliverance from their former sins, no matter how heinous they were (read about one man in Acts—-Paul). It is the pretender who convinces himself that he can continue in the sins he still loves and still claim to be "saved". I've been on both sides of this fence and will freely thank God for delivering me from all of my most heinous sins solely by His matchless Grace.

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    • intenseflana says:

      Regarding your statement that "To say that a person is not delivered from their sins upon salvation is a typical contention of those who believe that they were saved by an act of their free will and not solely be the grace of God," I must say that I have heard this over and over and over and over, but never had anyone of the reformed theological camp tell me that they can explain how God cannot be the author of sin if He is the sole cause of a person's salvation from the point of regeneration, through faith, to justification, sanctification, perseverance, then death/promotion to be with the Lord.

      We will not solve this here. I have had too many arguments (not wrathful, but lovingly). I will just say that there are so many problems if you say that God is deterministic/fatalistically bringing only those predetermined to salvation without their involvement whatsoever in terms of choice.

      Unfortunately, those in the reformed theological camp hold to a much more limited view of God than those of the free-grace camp because you believe that God can only have a world where He has decreed what will come to pass; thereby, excluding man's volition or any contingency. I can point to Scripture that shows that man's choice is completely within God's plan and depending on the choice man made, God had a plan either way.

      I have been told that no one can thwart the sovereignty of God. I agree. The question isn't whether God is sovereign; it is how that sovereignty operates, which reformed adherents never seem to answer, except to say that God is on His throne and He, having determined the end from the beginning (which is Scriptural and I agree), is controlling it all directly.

      Here's the thing. God is sovereign and has the character to have the ability to bring to pass His plan without directly forcing man's hand. God created us with a free will that is still functional today; God is so great that He can still achieve His plan regardless of our choices because He knows already that some will choose Him and He will use them. Those that do not choose Him are already condemned.

      Reformed adherents need to be honest with themselves because they blindly obey because God says to obey. You give the Gospel because God says to; by your theology it cannot be because that person may choose Christ….THEY CAN'T! What love is that? On the other hand, I give the Gospel because a person may respond then, or perhaps may respond in 20 years, or may never respond; plenty of Scripture states that God wishes all to repent and come to Christ….all means all and that is all all means.

      Frankly, I am more concerned for reformed adherents and their message to those advocating gay unions (I will not let them redefine the term "marriage" which God created) because you already believe some will never come to salvation because of your heretical thinking that they are not one of God's elect. The doctrine of election is Godly, true and biblical, but not the way you believe it. Honestly, you cannot give someone hope since you believe that if someone was not predestined to become a believer individually, the Gospel presented to them a million times will never change it because God cannot change His predestination. Oh….how I give them (those unbelievers involved in the gay union argument and decision) much more hope than you ever will. I pray daily you will repent of this awful, fatalistic and perverted version of the doctrine of election which God of course intended for us to understand rightly and not determine that some are destined to hell regardless of their volition.

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    • Joshuascamp says:

      "Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father naked and told his two brothers outside."

      Where do you get that Ham took sexual advantage of his father from that ?

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  12. Dan Rush says:

    Why should we be shocked, did not our Lord give us his Word that these things would come upon the Earth in the last days? Revelations 13:8 "And all the world, they who's names are not written in the book of life, shall worship the beast." Let us not be fearful nor downhearted but continue forth to proclaim the gospel and be as Combat Search and Rescue who are sent in to save downed pilots in enemy territory. The world is not ours, it is satan's world and we have been dropped into it as Christians to get out as many as we can before the final days of wrath. As for America, I have no further expectations for her revival or recovery…now we must scream only for her to repent and declare the warning that God is going to bring his vengeance upon a sick and deviant nation that has just declared all out war against the Lord.

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  13. Manny1962 says:

    Yes we all knew it was coming. No shock there. But, my wife said something to me the other night that startled me a little. She said, "I didn't expect it so soon, I was thinking maybe five or ten years down the line." Jesus did say to be ready! And to be watchful! Folks this is a signpost.

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    • intenseflana says:

      Don't be surprised your wife said this…most women are deceived so easily they are too busy on Facebook to notice until the rainbows start showing up. Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the Church, which means primarily He taught HER!

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  14. dave says:

    Jeff Durbin over at Apologia Church has a great message on this. Might want to check it out.

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  15. Manny1962 says:

    My wife does not do social media, neither do I, besides this lovely site I only use the net for some news and research. I am the teacher in my household, both child and wife look up to me for complex religious issues. I explain as best as I know using scripture as guide, lots of praying and guidance from the Holy Spirit. I follow no man, I had to leave a church I attended as the pastor showed his true colors, sadly that is the state of affairs where I live, and I would imagine in most major metropolitan cities.

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  16. Joshuascamp says:

    Well, one thing is certain. I can no longer advertise to sing and play for weddings, even exclusively Christian weddings. These two guys can come up and say they're getting married at the Episcopal church and it's a Christian wedding and I'd be obliged to do it or get caught up in in a law suit. And given that this current court has no problems with defining the Constitution for it's own convenience I almost feel like they be thrilled to have the opportunity to define Christianity.

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  17. Manny1962 says:

    That day will come soon enough, they will try and gag Chrisians from speaking the truth, how? It'll be called hate speech. In Canada it's happened already, Britain too. We will be persecuted for standing up for the truth.

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