A Boys’ Camp to Redefine Gender?

BoyBoys in sparkly pink dresses? wearing lipstick and parading down the catwalk to the throng of applauding parents?

Parents who believe that their little boys should express their feminine side are getting their frills on at a special camp for the confused:

Over the past three years, photographer Lindsay Morris has been documenting a four-day camp for gender nonconforming boys and their parents.

The camp, “You Are You” (the name has been changed to protect the privacy of the children and is also the name of Morris’ series), is for “Parents who don’t have a gender-confirming 3-year-old who wants to wear high heels and prefers to go down the pink aisle in K-Mart and not that nasty dark boys’ aisle,” Morris said with a laugh.

CampIt is also a place for both parents and children to feel protected in an environment that encourages free expression.

“[The kids] don’t have to look over their shoulders, and they can let down their guard. Those are four days when none of that matters, and they are surrounded by family members who support them,” Morris said.

Sigh. Story here.

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74 Responses to A Boys’ Camp to Redefine Gender?

  1. James Beadle says:

    Its too far beyond reason to even comment on. Tack it on to the laundry list under the head of "Signs of the Times".

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  2. Ronda says:

    What a shame that parents have nothing better to do as a parent than try to redefine the gender of the child that God gave them….if you want a girl then adopt one and if you want a boy adopt one or be pleased with the child you were entrusted to raise rather than convincing them to become someone they weren't intended to be!
    You don't bring a cat into your home and then decide one day that you would rather have a dog and begin to manipulate your cat to become one…people would define you as crazy! You simply go get a dog! Nature itself teaches you that some things are not interchangeable, or it should!

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  3. Larry says:

    So even LGBTQ people submit to the pink stereotype? I happen to love pink and being happily married to a real woman.

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    • Steve says:

      Ha ha. I have one pink neck-tie, which looks really nice on a solid white shirt, or a subtle pink stripe on white background shirt, with a deep navy suit. Nobody mistakes me for a mo. As far as "being happily married to a real woman", good for you, because they are getting scarce.

      Like

  4. This Is Sick. God Made Man Women And Boys Girls Not It! The Leader Should Never Be With Children Again

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  5. Joelle says:

    Sick people….

    Deuteronomy 22:5 “A woman shall not wear man’s clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman’s clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God."

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  6. Wendy says:

    So incredibly sick!!! and people wonder why our children are growing up confused and angry, why they strike out violently, when their role models, their examples of conduct are as deviant and evil as this. my heart breaks for the innocence that has been lost and morally warped. Children are a gift entrusted to us by The Lord and should ALWAYS be cherished as such. It saddens me to think that society has devalued these treasures of life (made in Gods image!) and has basically implied that God made a mistake with this child being a boy and that child being a girl……God doesn't make mistakes EVER!……praying continously for our precious children!!

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  7. Sharon says:

    Sometimes it is real easy to blur the line between "nonconformity" and "rebellion". And even a nonconformist can erase what's left of that line between "bringing glory to God" and "serving/pleasing self". [Ezekiel 12:2]

    Personally…..blue-green is my favorite color to wear.

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  8. paula knutson says:

    This has got to be one of the saddest things I've ever seen. Talk about child abuse, this is absolutely criminal. The one little guy isn't old enough to tie his shoes, and they dress him like a lady of the night. Personally I don't see anything funny in this article. It's dreadful. To see the parents sitting, applauding this behavior is tragic. It's as though they have lost all common sense. Jesus Christ is coming soon, I know he has to. Even so Lord Jesus Come!!!!!!

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  9. Sarah says:

    So, hypocrites…what do you think about children born with ambiguous genitalia? God made them neither male nor female. How should they identify themselves? God made them this way, was He wrong? Did He make a mistake? My God doesn't make mistakes, but he does love unconditionally and demands we do the same. Some of these children are probably bullied and shunned at school because they cannot be accepted and loved as they are. Bravo for a setting that allows them to feel safe and loved. I would bet my last dollar the church community has done little to show them and their families support, guidance, and love. Shame on you all and your judgement. I bet among you posters are alcoholics, thieves, adulterers, gluttons, but I love you all the same. Show Christ through your love, not your fear and hate.

    "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
    Matthew 25:45-46 (NIV)

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  10. lyn says:

    sarah,
    In all fairness, you insist others show love, and yet, your way of showing love includes calling others hypocrites. A hypocrite is defined as ' A person who professes certain ideals, but fails to live up to them.' I don't think that has been the case here at all. Please, let us always weigh our words very carefully; It really isn't necessary to lash out with all your presumptuous accusations.

    Parents should not encourage their son to dress or act like a girl, and visa versa. This is not about those who are born with mixed anatomies, or eunuchs. This is about children who are born normal; it is the parents who come under scrutiny here. Letting or encouraging a young boy to dress up or act like a girl is not loving them or making them feel safe. They need to be taught that God has made them male, or female, and they need to be raised accordingly.
    No true born again believer would ever shun a child, nor would they condone parents decisions to engage their children in the foolishness represented in this article.

    As I read through all the comments, it is the parents who are being held accountable and coming under scrutiny, not the children. Perhaps you would do well to re-read the article and the comments again, with greater care.

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    • Sarah says:

      Lyn,

      Thank you for condescendingly requesting that I re-read the article, but I understand it quite well. Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites, as they were. I call the previous posters hypocrites because they are. That doesn't mean I don't show love to them, it means I care enough about them to point out a grave and deadly sin, judgement, and I fear for their eternal souls enough to bring that to light. Maybe instead of judging these children and their parents we should show them love, support, and guidance. That is what Jesus instructed us to do. I feel sorry for Mr. Swindlehurst and his narrow minded opinions. I pray he studies and prays for further guidance on how to better address this issue. Best wishes and God Bless you, Lyn. All of your souls shall be in my prayers.

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      • lyn says:

        Sarah,
        You pass judgment without warrant {like accusing me of having a condescending attitude}. You accuse posters here of being judgmental, and yet, you pass judgment on them. What you have done here is a clear definition of hypocrisy – accusing us of judging when you yourself do the same.
        To steer a child into gender confusion is sin, to guide a child with a godly upbringing will prevent all the foolishness and nonsense found in this article.

        Most of those who comment here get that. As for Pastor Swindlehurst, your passing judgment on him and calling him narrow-minded is also unwarranted. We must be careful of slinging insults and hurling accusations carelessly, these are not the fruit produced by God the Spirit. This is the fruit produced by pleasing the flesh.

        If you insist on pointing a finger at others, it would be best to accompany that with a verse that backs your claim. Otherwise, all we have here is your opinion.
        As for the one verse you did quote, that has nothing to do with parents leading their children into gender confusion; pulling verses out of context to fit a personal view is tampering with God's word.
        You also claim to this ', but I love you all the same. Show Christ through your love, not your fear and hate.' You cover your attack as one of 'love'. Biblical love is not what you've displayed here at all. We are called to correct each other, and we need to use word of God when we do. Otherwise, it's just a personal rant motivated by opinion, preference, etc. and does NOT seek to correct a brother or sister in Christ biblically. It stems from living according to the flesh.

        Steering a young child into gender confusion is not biblical, just because a parent's son may play with dolls doesn't mean you need to dress him up like a girl and put him in a fashion show.
        'Train up a child in the way he should go, and even when he is old he will not depart from it.' Proverbs 22:6

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      • Sarah says:

        Lyn,

        First, as I am sure you noticed, I did provide scripture. The posters suggest the parents, and indirectly their children, are lesser than them because they do not conform to their beliefs. Again, rather than judge them, which they are, they should lift them up in prayer and extend love to them. Second, I am insulting no one. I state facts and I do so with a loving heart. I truly fear for your soul and theirs if you continue on your bigoted path. You accuse me of lashing out? I am not angry and I attack no one. You are personally attacking me, Lyn, and I don't understand why my words bother you so much. Maybe you need to go back to your therapist. You don't know my heart or my intentions, only God does and He knows they are pure and sincere. Jesus dined with sinners and thieves and preached the gospel to prostitutes. If Jesus walked the earth today he would love these little souls and show them guidance and support to grow in their spiritual relationship with Him. Last, these parents aren't "steering" or forcing their children to do this. This is how their children are, this is how God made them. I don't claim to understand how or why, but He did and He loves them as much as He loves you and me. Rather than condemn their children as you and the mant in the community do, they are providing a safe outlet for them to express themselves. All children deserve emotional support that includes love, safety, and the opportunity to express themselves in a non-threatening environment. They are doing what they think is best for their child, whom they know and understand better than anyone on this site, including you and Me. With that being said, Lyn, here is further scripture to support my beliefs and again warn you and the above posters to keep a heart filled with love and support for all of God's children, not just the ones that share your opinions. I will continue to pray for you. Blessings.

        Matthew 23:13-15

        “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

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      • lyn says:

        Sarah,
        The scripture you provided, you have pulled out of context. How does that text fit with the article and the comments made here? It doesn't. No one here is preventing anybody from entering God's kingdom, no one here is exalting their religion or themselves above another. The context of the verses you gave have not one thing to do with this article.

        You also accuse, falsely, when you say, " The posters suggest the parents, and indirectly their children, are lesser than them because they do not conform to their beliefs. " No one here has stated such, the majority of the comments point to the harm this does to kids.

        You also claim to be stating facts. Your original comment opens with "So, hypocrites…" there is NO biblical backing for your accusation; instead, you follow up with 'what do you think about children born with ambiguous genitalia? God made them neither male nor female. How should they identify themselves? God made them this way, was He wrong? Did He make a mistake? My God doesn’t make mistakes, but he does love unconditionally and demands we do the same.' This article isn't even about what you've stated; you've gone down a rabbit trail on are on a personal tirade at this point. How do I know? NO scriptural backing.
        You follow up your judgment of hypocrisy with "Shame on you all and your judgement. I bet among you posters are alcoholics, thieves, adulterers, gluttons, but I love you all the same. Show Christ through your love, not your fear and hate." Again, you speak only from opinion, you do not point to any specific comment, nor do you take a comment and show, from the word of God, why you have made a judgment call against anyone.

        You posted two verses from Matthew 25 that have nothing to do with this article or any of the comments. You pull these verses out of context to try and use them against people here as some basis for your opinionated comment, but those verses don't coincide with anything said here by anyone.
        Then you proceed to say, in you latest comment, 'Maybe you need to go back to your therapist. You don’t know my heart or my intentions, only God does and He knows they are pure and sincere.' More attacks, no scripture… Enough of the opinionated rants already, let's move on to the heart of the matter…

        is it biblical to encourage or force gender confusion on a child? Is it okay to take your son and raise him as a girl? Or your daughter, raising her as a boy? What has God said? "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:27 From the start, God created two sexes, one distinctly male, one distinctly female. This isn't interchangeable, for if it were, God would have said so. There was no gender confusion when God created them male and female.

        What is causing the rampant gender confusion in society? I like how Don Batten of creationdotcom puts it, 'When a society ceases to honour God, the consequences are manifold and not good. “Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a disgrace to any people.” Proverbs 14:34. When God abandons a nation, sin and confusion increase and reek havoc. He also states 'Parental expectations and reactions to behaviour are probably a key to what has happened.' His full article is available at creation DOTcom/gender-confusion

        There will be an increase in wickedness right before Christ returns, Matthew 24:12, 2 Timothy 3:13. Gender confusion is part of the increased wickedness. Woe to those who embrace gender confusion and encourage their child to act opposite of how they were born.These children need to be taught the word of God, and to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

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      • lyn says:

        Matthew 23:13-15, broken down; first, who was Christ addressing? The self righteous religious leaders of His day, why? "They shut up the kingdom of heaven against men, that is, they did all they could to keep people from believing in Christ, and so entering into his kingdom."{M. Henry} No one here has done that. The Pharisees and scribes "made it their business to press the ceremonial law" {M. Henry} Again, no one here has done that. No one here has withheld truth, nor forced the law as a means of salvation on others, which is what the scribes and Pharisees did. No one here has 'devoured widows houses', nor have they made of show of public prayer, nor have they sought to 'recruit' anybody to a false religion, which leads to damnation. No one here has made a proselyte of anyone -' One that comes over from a foreign nation, religion, or sect to us – a convert. The Pharisees gained them either to swell their own numbers, or to make gain by extorting their money under various pretences; and when they had accomplished that, they took no pains to instruct them or to restrain them. ' A. Barnes
        A more careful scrutiny of the verses you listed clearly shows you have taken them out of context, and done a practice called 'eisegesis', which is 'adding to the text' something it simply doesn't say.
        ""You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you." Deut. 4:2

        " Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar." Proverbs 30:6

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  11. lyn says:

    May I also encourage you to listen to this sermon on gender distinction found at sermonaudio DOT com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=623131528566
    by Pastor John Swindlehurst

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  12. Sarah says:

    Lyn,

    First, I don't agree that the scripture was taken out of context. If you read those chapters in Matthew you will see that the Pharisees were passing judgement on those they thought should and could pursue a relationship with God. The posters and many people in the community feel compelled to judge these families and state that what they choose to do is wrong, is not of God, and they should be condemned. If you read back through the posts that is very evident. Is homosexuality wrong, yes. As you and I both know the Bible makes that clear. These children are not practicing that, nor are there parents. They are expressing their interests in a safe and non-judgemental environment. Is it ok for a girl to play with trucks? Or play sports? Or wear pants? Or have a job outside of the home?— those things seem pretty socially acceptable, even in the church. However, according to you if we fall into gender assignments and stereotypes it is not. We should all stay in the home and obey our husbands. Is it ok for a boy to like Tinkerbelle? Or pink? or dresses?— this isn't as socially acceptable. However, if your opinion is, and all you have stated thus far is opinion and provided testimony from pastors who share your ideals and also taken scripture out of context, then we must all conform to our gender identities and do "girl" activities and "boy" activities. So, unless you agree that girls should only do "girl things and boys should only do "boy" things, you have created an incredibly sad and limiting double standard.

    Secondly, does this harm the children? Seems like these children feel safe and loved, very likely different from their reception in traditional social settings of school and church. I think this is much better than a little boy that has "gender confusion" as you call it who grows up in a "Christian" home where he is shamed for his evil thoughts and ways. Fast forward ten years later after this child has been extensively bullied because he is different and develops severe coping problems because he has little support at home and either harms himself or others as a way of lashing out on his tormentors. So, I fail to understand how this camp harms the kids vs. other much more rigid alternatives.

    Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1John 4:8— This is the backing behind pretty much EVERYTHING I have said on this site. No one on this site has shown these parents or their children love. They have been called "nasty" and "sick", that's not love that's judgement. Me calling that out for what it is is not wrong or hypocrisy. If done so with a loving heart (as it is), then it is cajoling my fellow Christians to soften their hearts and consider the struggles these families face.

    Thirdly, how do you know that none of these children have ambiguous genitalia? Did you go to the camp and check yourself? The point is you don't know. You would be disturbed to know how frequently gender reassignment happens to infants and they develop into a child that was raised as one gender and come to find out the medical staff selected the "wrong" gender. Genetically some people are "male" or "female" and have hormonal imbalances or dysfunctions that make their bodies develop the opposite. Some of these people live their whole lives as what they were taught to be and only find out they are genotypically the opposite when they are married and trying to start a family and can't physically do so because of the genetic miscommunication. What then? Should they divorce their mate because that makes them "gay"? And yes, it is a "rabbit trail" as you call it because starting an argument about gender confusion and saying it is either right or wrong is the basis for a slippery slope argument and everyone, including these children and their parents, don't fit into your stereotypical little box.

    Again- Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1John 4:8. Love these people. What do you think will turn their hearts and minds to God? Judging them and condemning their actions or trying to understand and relate to them while showing how great God is in your life? No one is going to associate with people or go to places they feel unwelcome.

    And taking scripture out of context– whoa– you said There will be an increase in wickedness right before Christ returns, Matthew 24:12, 2 Timothy 3:13. Gender confusion is part of the increased wickedness. Last time I checked God or the Bible did not say " Gender confusion is part of the increased wickedness"— that is your opinion tacked on to the end of a scripture contorted to fit your misguided interpretations of God's holy word. I agree we are surrounded by wickedness every day, we live in scary times. However, if I were you I would be a lot more worried about someone who proposes to be a Christian, but in reality is living a life of sin outside of the church than I would about a parent trying to allow his/her child self- expression in a society where they are bullied and tormented.

    Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. I hope you can find love in your heart, Lyn for ALL of God's children. I love you and pray for you.

    Like

    • lyn says:

      Sarah, you have been given a break down of matthew, and you still pull it out of context and falsely accuse. You are in God's hands.

      Like

      • Sarah says:

        Lyn,

        You're right, I am in God's hands as are all of his children. I am thankful for his grace each and every day. That is essentially the only correct statement you have offered in all of your rantings. I will continue to pray that God softens your heart and you can find love for all of His children as He has instructed. Blessings.

        Sarah

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      • lyn says:

        Sarah, this isn't even about loving children! This is about parents raising their kids wrong. NO ONE here has stated they did not love these kids; this is what I meant by stating you assume.
        I ask you to show from any of my or anybody else's comments where we stated we did not love these children.
        Your claim – " I will continue to pray that God softens your heart and you can find love for all of His children as He has instructed." Now, show me where I have stated I did not love these children.

        Like

      • Sarah says:

        You condemn them and me. That is not love.

        Like

  13. Sarah says:

    ” Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.” Proverbs 30:6— As you stated above, Lyn. Take your own advice, Dear. Blessings.

    Like

    • lyn says:

      Honestly, what I see in all your comments is a LOT of assumption…you assume to know what people are thinking, you assume the article included ='Thirdly, how do you know that none of these children have ambiguous genitalia? Did you go to the camp and check yourself? The point is you don’t know." …to which I add, neither do you.
      Your understanding of God is one you have fashioned in your own mind…He is all love,love, love. That's common today. God is love,yes, but are you familiar with His attributes? Do you know that He is first and foremost thrice holy? Do you know that from His holiness, He will avenge? His righteousness stems from His holiness being offended, His laws being broken, His word trampled on. God is a God of vengeance and of wrath as well. He will judge sin.
      You fail to see who the God of the Bible is, and you try and defend sinful behavior by insulting God and using love as your cover. When parents take their son or daughter and raise them opposite of how God designed them, it is sin. No matter how hard you try, you simply cannot justify this. That is the issue at hand, nothing more. IF you love your child, you will not confuse them by dressing them opposite of what they were born, you will not encourage your son to wear make-up, etc. Much of what happens to children today can be traced back to the parents, or lack of. Again, I refer to Dr. Batten's article, "The human brain is incredibly plastic (malleable) and reinforcing certain behaviours (with concern, attention, etc., for example) can reinforce that behaviour. The Bible says, “Train up a child …” (Proverbs 22:6) because children are most open to direction and correction. If we put that in the context of a society where gender-bending confusion is rampant in the media and you have all the ingredients, after some time of reinforcement, of thinking ‘I was born this way’, thus reinforcing the notion that ‘I am really a girl, although I look like a boy’."
      Dr. Batten also includes a chart listing the social problems of children from single parent families vs. that of two parent families. It is no secret, God's plan for the family is definitely healthier. For example, drug abuse is 10 times more likely in that of a single parent home. I can verify that by looking in my own neighborhood, and at my own relatives.
      He also points this out from a recent study, 'It is significant that mental aberrations in children have increased with the decline of church involvement. [Secular reporter] Miranda Devine commented on a Dartmouth Medical School study in North America, reporting that, “A ‘direct personal relationship with the Divine’ is associated with reduced risk-taking and better mental health.”2 And, in Australia, “As churchgoing slumped, so did children’s emotional wellbeing … a staggering 20% have mental health problems … [this] has developed since WW2.” {Devine, Miranda, Church and family can save kids, Sun-Herald (Sydney), 16 Nov 2003, reporting on a 2003 Dartmouth Medical School Study}

      In your defense of gender confusion, you add to the problem.

      Like

  14. Sarah says:

    Lyn,

    Oh my, Dear. I do feel so sorry for you. You writing tone sounds so defensive and so bitter. It must be difficult to have a heart riddled bitterness. Maybe you aren't that way, but you certainly sound that way. Most of your points are also based on assumption and contortion of God's holy word to codemn those that you don't see fit for his grace. When I asked if you checked for yourself I most certainly was implying that none of us (including myself) know that information. They may, they may not, but the bottom line is you don't know and you make the assumption that all of these little boys are genetically and phenotypically male, which may not be the case.

    While I do believe God is love, as many people do, I am also aware of his power to judge all. He also warns us not to judge because that vengance is His and His alone.

    Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” -Romans 12:19.

    You and other posters do judge these families, you do judge these children, and by your words you have judged me and assume that I only think of God as love and do not acknowledge Him in all of His might and power, which is both an assumption and incorrect. What I am basically saying is we as the church SHOULD show these people love and kindness because that is what Christians, real Christians, do. It is what Jesus did. Again, the other posters and you have not shown them any kindness and you certainly have not been kind to me. I have acknowledge multiple times that I love you and pray for you and you continue to tear me down. That's not very Christian-like, but who knows, maybe you're not a Christian. I don't know you and I won't assume to know you as you have done to me.

    Dr. Batten is not God, Jesus, or the Bible. I really don't care what he thinks and he is a reputable source only by your own personal standards. The Bible warns of false prophets who seek to divide and separate God's kingdom. Condemning a certain group of people seems pretty divisive.

    John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    1John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

    Did you actually take time to look at these studies he cited? Or did you just copy and past it and take it as his word and therefore the truth? I actually took the time to review each of these and they are both wrought with confounding variables and have poor study design. If you are going to cite a scientific study, make sure it is a good one.

    You have accused me of being part of the problem because I defend gender confusion. I don't think I am part of the problem in that I applaud families (pleural, not single parent familes as you referenced) that are concerned with their children's happiness and well-being. I also don't think I am part of the problem in that I clearly state homosexuality is not condoned in the Bible, yet I implore that you and others open your hearts and show kindness to those that may not share your beliefs.

    Being a Christian that condemns without love and acceptance, or at least tries to understand and gain perspective on another's plight in life is a problem and is a reason so many people today feel isolated from the church and it's believers.

    I will continue to pray for you and your heart, Lyn. Peace be with you.

    Like

  15. lyn says:

    Sarah,

    I specifically asked for you to show me, from my previous comments, where I stated I had no love for these children. You responded with 'You condemn them and me. That is not love.'
    Again, this is not what I asked for. I am asking you to go back over all my comments and find where I stated I did not love these children, and now that you've thrown in I have condemned you, where did I state you were hell bound? That is what condemning means, to state one is under wrath and/or bound for hell. Please prove your accusations with substantial and verifiable proof.

    Like

  16. lyn says:

    Sarah,
    Let's look at this from you, 'You and other posters do judge these families, you do judge these children, and by your words you have judged me and assume that I only think of God as love and do not acknowledge Him in all of His might and power,'

    Now, let's look at your very first comment here…

    "So, hypocrites…what do you think about children born with ambiguous genitalia? God made them neither male nor female. How should they identify themselves? God made them this way, was He wrong? Did He make a mistake? My God doesn’t make mistakes, but he does love unconditionally and demands we do the same. Some of these children are probably bullied and shunned at school because they cannot be accepted and loved as they are. Bravo for a setting that allows them to feel safe and loved. I would bet my last dollar the church community has done little to show them and their families support, guidance, and love. Shame on you all and your judgement. I bet among you posters are alcoholics, thieves, adulterers, gluttons, but I love you all the same. Show Christ through your love, not your fear and hate.

    “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
    Matthew 25:45-46 (NIV)

    It is tragic that you accuse others of the very thing you did from the start…you judged. Then you proceed to call a Christian scientist a false prophet, your statement – 'Dr. Batten is not God, Jesus, or the Bible. I really don’t care what he thinks and he is a reputable source only by your own personal standards. The Bible warns of false prophets who seek to divide and separate God’s kingdom'. He disagrees with your view, so you judge and condemn – the VERY thing you accused me of doing! Amazing.

    I have asked for verifiable proof from you, using my statements as I have yours, showing where I have stated I do not love these children, and where I have condemned you to hell. I also ask for Scripture from you to support gender confusion.

    Like

    • Sarah says:

      Wow- Lyn, calm down. You seem very angry. If you read my earlier statement you would see that I am not judging them. As their sister in Christ I am pointing out a flaw and asking that they (and you) seek love for these people, not call them "nasty" and "sick".

      I didn't say Dr. Batten was a false prophet. I said he is not God, Jesus, or the Bible. That is true. I also said he is your source, but that everyone (including myself) may not take that as a standard (I prefer the Bible). I also provided scripture that we all must be wary of false prophets, which is true. I did not say he was one, just that we should all be aware. So again, you accuse me of judging and condemning- which I did not do.

      You got your proof- I just sent it. Unlike you I am enjoying my retirement and I am not sitting glued to my computer today seething, foaming at the mouth, gnashing my teeth, and waiting to tear about my next post. Who knows what you do for a living…according to your "beliefs" you probably stay at home and do gender consistent things and don't work while someone reaps a pay-check for you and supports you. Even worse, you may be at work wasting your employers time. Or the worst, you may be on government assistance and able to work, but choose not to while tax payers keep you up.

      Lastly, I have kindly referenced your statements, but certainly didn't have to. You aren't my boss and I don't answer to you. Just because you demand something from me doesn't mean you get it. Who do you think you are? You have a warped sense of self, religion, and humanity. I will continue to pray for you, poor Lyn.

      Like

      • lyn says:

        No, I am not a angry. I am perplexed at your inability to answer a simple question. Instead of addressing my request, you falsely accuse, or you pull my words out and give your own assessment of them. However, that does not prove that I stated I hate children, because I never said that. Nor did I say you are going to hell. That is why you cannot find, from any of my comments, any substantial proof. I kept pressing the issue to see your response, and it was just as I suspected. BTW, your own anger needs to be addressed as you use all caps to blow me away from my monitor, if that were possible. {BTW, there was nothing in Dr. Batten's article that warranted you mentioning a warning about false prophets. For future reference, a false prophet is defined by Thayer's Greek Definitions 'as one who, acting the part of a divinely inspired prophet, utters falsehoods under the name of divine prophecies, a religious impostor'. This doesn't even come close to describing Dr. Batten.}

        Lastly, speaking of anger, here are your very own words, " Unlike you I am enjoying my retirement and I am not sitting glued to my computer today seething, foaming at the mouth, gnashing my teeth, and waiting to tear about my next post. Who knows what you do for a living…according to your “beliefs” you probably stay at home and do gender consistent things and don’t work while someone reaps a pay-check for you and supports you. Even worse, you may be at work wasting your employers time. Or the worst, you may be on government assistance and able to work, but choose not to while tax payers keep you up." Wow! Where is the love that you claim to possess?!?

        And who is angry?! Goodness, what presumptuous accusations you have railed out here. Hey, but you are a Christian! Look at that fruit…good grief, and we wonder why the church is such a mess. I do point out your condescending way of closing all your comments, 'I will continue to pray for you'. I prefer you didn't, for the 'god' you bow down to is not the God of the Bible. He is one you have fashioned in your mind, your speech gives you away. Your judgmental railing, your misuse of God's word and ignorance of it, your accusations without warrant, the way you came here railing accusations with no scriptural support, other than pulling verses out of context, the continual rabbit trails; but, most of all – defending gender confusion and providing no scriptural support for your defense.
        Your last comment reminds me of Christ words, "For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart." Matthew 12:34

        Perhaps you need to be taken back to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and what God's word says concerning the salvation of a sinner, 'For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.' Ephesians 2:8-9

        I also encourage you to do as the Apostle Paul instructs, ' test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?' 2 Corinthians 13:5

        Do you understand the doctrine of regeneration, and have you been born again?

        Like

      • Rose says:

        Whatever you were trying to express on this topic, you lost me completely when you began a personal attack…making unkind,snarky, even slanderous statements regarding a follow poster here. It was totally uncalled for and IMHO, not what I would expect of one claiming to be a born again Christian. We discuss many topics here and it can get heated at times when we disagree. But we can still do so civily. In my opinion, you stepped over a line.

        I am referring to these statements: "Unlike you I am enjoying my retirement and I am not sitting glued to my computer today seething, foaming at the mouth, gnashing my teeth, and waiting to tear about my next post. Who knows what you do for a living…according to your “beliefs” you probably stay at home and do gender consistent things and don’t work while someone reaps a pay-check for you and supports you. Even worse, you may be at work wasting your employers time. Or the worst, you may be on government assistance and able to work, but choose not to while tax payers keep you up."

        Just because someone disagrees with you and is passionate in expressing their opinion does not give you the right to spue hatred. We, as Christians, should be able to disagree and do it in a God honoring way…without rancor and personal attack….loving the other person even as we disagree with them. Once you veer off the topic at hand and begin personal attacks, whatever merit your argument may have had….you just lost your credibility and people stop reading.

        That Lyn was so patient with you for so long is a tribute to her. I appreciate her presence here and want to encourage her to continue to participate in this forum because the content of her posts is always very helpful to me.

        Like

      • lyn says:

        Rose,
        The Lord be praised for your kind words ' I appreciate her presence here and want to encourage her to continue to participate in this forum because the content of her posts is always very helpful to me.' I truly am thankful for having you as my sister. I should not have tarried on with this woman as long as I did, she obviously has no ears to hear. She came here, guns loaded, hurling accusations and spewing out hate, and hasn't stopped since. There comes a time we must obey God's word and dust off our feet, 'shun and avoid lest we be infected', as Matthew Henry states in his commentary on Romans 16:17. The battle can be weary- God has given me encouragement this night through you Rose…thank you, and God bless.

        Like

      • Sarah says:

        Rose and Lyn,
        I have offered love, support, and acceptance to people often shunned ( the families and children in the article), and I have offered prayer and love to Lyn continuously throughout the day despite her vehement attacks on me, my faith, and my defense of those who often don't have the voice in the church to defend themselves. Although I don't agree with all of Lyn'd comments and am quite hurt by her attacks, I have listened. Unfortunately, because I don't believe exactly as you do, and as many other Christians don't, you both have insinuated I "spew hate and am not a Christian". Neither of you know that and it is presumptuous to say that you do. I have never been so belittled or shunned by two sisters who claim Christ. The fact that you gang up on me and bully me in a public forum is even more sad. To suggest you will dust off your feet and ignore me is not Christlike. I have a different opinion on some topics, but that makes me no less of a human and no less of a Christian than either of you. Because I a forgiving woman I won't demand an apology from you as you did feom me, but I will turn the other cheek and pray for you and love you despite your hurtful words. God bless you both. That is not spewing hate, ladies, that is love and grace.

        Like

      • Rose says:

        And God bless you,Lyn, for your willingness to engage people and point them to the truth of God's Word…even when they take offense. I have been reading your posts here for a long time. You are passionate in defending the truth but always do it without mean spirited personal attacks that so many, even some born again believers, are resorting to today. First and foremost, we are to love the brethren. Then we can go out and love the lost of this world. But if we can't treat fellow Christians with respect, then all the talk of love for sinners is just a clanging gong.

        Recently you posted some quotes from A,W, Pink and a link to his writings. What a blessing that has been. I just purchased his book, The Nature Of God and am looking forward to reading that. Thanks so much, Lyn. Iron sharpening iron. God bless you, dear sister.

        Like

  17. Sarah says:

    Oh, poor Lyn. Did you just read my shorter comment because it was easier to read than the one where I clearly pointed these things out. You like easy– like copy and pasting propaganda articles before researching them.

    Well, to make it easy for you since you like it that way- I have arranged your words and how they are condemning to these families and me.

    Lyn- "You also claim to this ‘, but I love you all the same. Show Christ through your love, not your fear and hate.’ You cover your attack as one of ‘love’. Biblical love is not what you’ve displayed here at all. We are called to correct each other, and we need to use word of God when we do. Otherwise, it’s just a personal rant motivated by opinion, preference, etc. and does NOT seek to correct a brother or sister in Christ biblically. It stems from living according to the flesh.—-HERE YOU ACCUSE ME OF ATTACKING OTHERS WHEN I AM ONLY ATTEMPTING TO BRING TO LIGHT THE ERROR OF THESE OTHER BELIEVERS WAYS. YOU ATTACK ME REPEATEDLY LIKE THIS THROUGHOUT YOUR POSTS. WHY DO YOU FEEL THE NEED TO ATTACK ME BECAUSE I DON'T AGREE WITH YOU?

    Steering a young child into gender confusion is not biblical, just because a parent’s son may play with dolls doesn’t mean you need to dress him up like a girl and put him in a fashion show.
    ‘Train up a child in the way he should go, and even when he is old he will not depart from it.’ Proverbs 22:6
    -HERE YOU ARE INSINUATING THAT THESE ARE BAD PARENTS BECAUSE THEY ALLOW THEIR SONS TO 'PLAY DRESS UP'. THAT IS A CONDEMNING STATEMENT- TO CALL SOMEONE A BAD PARENT. I WILL ALSO POINT OUT YOU TOOK THIS SCRIPTURE OUT OF CONTEXT. IT REFERS TO BRINGING UP A CHILD TO BE HONEST, HAVE INTEGRITY, AND BELIEVE THE TRUE WORD OF GOD AND HIDE IT IN HIS/HER HEART.

    His righteousness stems from His holiness being offended, His laws being broken, His word trampled on. God is a God of vengeance and of wrath as well. He will judge sin.
    -HERE YOU IMPLY THAT THESE 'BAD PARENTS' YOU REFERRED TO EARLIER WILL BE PUNISHED FOR THEIR SINS AND THAT GOD WILL HAVE WRATH ON THESE SINNERS. AGAIN, A CONDEMNING STATEMENT. ARE YOU A SINNER,LYN? I BET YOU THINK YOU AREN'T.

    You fail to see who the God of the Bible is, and you try and defend sinful behavior by insulting God and using love as your cover. When parents take their son or daughter and raise them opposite of how God designed them, it is sin.
    -YOU ACCUSE ME OF 'INSULTING GOD' WHOM I LOVE WITH ALL OF MY HEART AND SERVE HIM EVERY DAY AND PRAISE THE DAY HE FORGAVE ME OF MY SINS BECAUSE I CAN ACKNOWLEDGE I AM A SINNER. YOU AGAIN ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR SIN, THAT IT IS SIN THAT I DEFEND IT AND BASED ON YOUR PREVIOUS COMMENTS THAT MEANS WE WILL EXPERIENCE WRATH, VENGENAGE, AND HELL.

    IF you love your child, you will not confuse them by dressing them opposite of what they were born, you will not encourage your son to wear make-up, etc. Much of what happens to children today can be traced back to the parents, or lack of.
    -AGAIN, "IF YOU LOVE YOUR CHILD.." AND THEY DO ALLOW, EMPHASIS ON ALLOW THEIR CHILD WHO WANTS TO DO THIS (i.e.NO ONE IS BEING FORCED) YOU WON'T DO THIS…..AND THIS CAN BE TRACED BACK TO PARENTS OR "LACK THEREOF"……YOU BASICALLY ARE FORFEITING THEIR GOD- GIVEN POSITION OF EVEN BEING A PARENT AND BASICALLY SAYING THESE KIDS WOULD BE BETTER OFF NOT HAVING PARENTS THAN PARENTS WHO LOVE AND PROTECT THEM, BUT ALLOW THEM TO DO SUCH AN ABOMINATION. SURPRISINGLY, YOU ALSO REFERENCE THE PROBLEMS OF SINGLE PARENT HOMES. SO YOU'RE SAYING YOU WOULD RATHER A CHILD HAVE NO PARENTS OR BE IN A SINGLE PARENT HOME THAT LACKS SUPPORT AND GUIDANCE THAN BE IN A HOME WHERE THEY GET LOVE AND SUPPORT, BUT ALLOWED TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES? YOU CONTRADICT YOURSELF.

    So, was that easy enough for you Lyn? Your words have been very judgemental and very condemning. I am not saying you are like that, but your actions certainly are. Despite your deep seeded negativity and pride rooted in the need to 'be right'- I will continue to love you and pray for guidance for your soul.

    Like

  18. lyn says:

    Sarah,

    you have resorted to more assumptions, using my words out of context and claiming you know my heart and my motive. I will only take the time to confront one of your examples…
    "His righteousness stems from His holiness being offended, His laws being broken, His word trampled on. God is a God of vengeance and of wrath as well. He will judge sin." {my words, as I describe the attributes of God}
    -HERE YOU IMPLY THAT THESE ‘BAD PARENTS’ YOU REFERRED TO EARLIER WILL BE PUNISHED FOR THEIR SINS AND THAT GOD WILL HAVE WRATH ON THESE SINNERS. AGAIN, A CONDEMNING STATEMENT. ARE YOU A SINNER,LYN? I BET YOU THINK YOU AREN’T. – your rebuttal.

    Now, let me ask you this, how is it you can see into my heart and discern my motive? How is it you can positively say I am pronouncing judgment on these parents? Since I am the originator of the statement you attack, let ME tell you what I meant. I was presenting God in His wholeness, NOT the God you have presented here, the one-sided God of love. I was countering your presentation of God with the Biblical God, the God who is thrice holy. NOWHERE did I state I condemned these parents to hell…do you understand now? NOWHERE did I state I was not a sinner…do you comprehend this? If you want to read my testimony for what Christ has done for me, you are welcome to go to iamhis-lyn DOT blogspot DOT com/2008/11/my-testimony-up-until-fall-of-2003-i DOT html

    In all that you wrote, you still have not given verifiable proof that I state I hate children, or that I condemn you to hell.

    Let's try this one last time…
    quote me, verbatim, where I condemn you to hell. quote me, word for word, where I state I hate these children.
    Show all here, from the word of God, where God states we must condone and promote Gender confusion.

    Please, no more rabbit trails, no more taking my comments and adding your own personal rendition of them. Point me to my words that say 'I hate these children', point me to my words that say, 'Sarah, you are going to hell', point me to God's word that says 'your children can grow up gender confused, and you should embrace and encourage that'.

    Like

  19. Sarah says:

    Again- I DON'T OWE YOU ANYTHING. I never said you "hated children", I never said you told me to "go to hell"– So don't ask me to point out where you said that because I never accused you of saying those things. I think in my last, very clear and consise post I showed you where you make statements that are very judgmental of these families, their children, and me and certainly IMPLY that we will experience wrath (i.e. hell) for our beliefs that are not consistent with yours.

    The Bible never references "gender confusion"– that is a man-made term and way to isolate and divide people seen as different from the church. However, the Bible does reference many many parables where Jesus washed a sinners feet, ate dinner with theives and murderers, and forgave Judas and his other persecuters despite their transgressions against Him. If Jesus were present today he would befriend and witness to those families and children, not saying they will experience wrath. I certainly did not take your comments and add my own renditions- those are the things you said. Your words, not mine.

    God never said you should encourage your child to be gender confused, but he did ask that we love, protect, and provide for them.

    See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.
    (Matthew 18:10 ESV)

    Don't ask me to quote you "verbatim" on things we both know you didn't say, but certainly implied, and don't ask for scripture which you and I both know doesn't exist.

    God bless you for providing your testimony. I will continue to pray for your soul.

    Sarah

    Like

  20. lyn says:

    Sarah,

    From your '11:05 am' post – ' Sarah #
    Lyn,

    You’re right, I am in God’s hands as are all of his children. I am thankful for his grace each and every day. That is essentially the only correct statement you have offered in all of your rantings. I will continue to pray that God softens your heart and you can find love for all of His children as He has instructed. Blessings.

    Sarah

    September 30, 2013 at 11:05 am

    Here you accuse me of hating, praying God will enable me to find love.

    Then, from your '12:21 pm' post, you make this accusation –
    'Sarah #
    You condemn them and me. That is not love.

    September 30, 2013 at 12:21 pm

    Now, you accuse me of not loving as well as condemning you, and them, to hell- that is the definition of condemning, did you know that? Condemn, in the Greek, is katakrino, it means ' to give judgment against, to judge worthy of punishment'.

    I have a comment awaiting moderation, that one will address some much need biblical issues.

    Like

  21. Sarah says:

    Wow, pride. So sorry you must live like this– I didn't say you hated anyone. Just that you are not being gracious and not showing me Christ like love. Not showing love is not the same thing as hatred.

    I agree with your Greek derivative of katakrino- my divinity thesis was on the topic. You did judge me and my beliefs and those of others, and therefore codemn us with your judgement. By condemning us you acknowledge that you see us fit for hell. Be careful with your words and make sure that you know what they mean and that you mean what you say. As a sister in Christ I can't imagine you really mean that.

    Given your background and your relatively new walk with Christ, I understand why it is necessary for you to view this topic in a black/white, good vs bad, concrete fashion. I thank God for the people, who despite what the church told them about not fraternizing with those who are not Christians, were loving and kind enough to witness to you. In time you will develop Grace to love people for who they are and spread your testimony and Christ's love to them despite their background.

    I look forward to your comment. It is important that you continue to bury your heart in Christ and God's word.

    Blessings.

    Like

    • lyn says:

      Let's look at your words again – ' I will continue to pray that God softens your heart and you can find love for all of His children as He has instructed.' Let me ask you this, why would you pray for God to soften my heart and so I could find love for all his children if you weren't saying I have hate? You appear to be contradicting your very own statements.

      Next, you say, 'You did judge me and my beliefs and those of others, and therefore codemn us with your judgement.' First of all, you tack on condemning, which is NOT a part of biblical judging. Look at 1 Cor. 15:5, ' For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?' We are called to rightly judge within the church – as commentary from Albert Barnes states 'Is not your jurisdiction as Christians confined to those who are within the church, and professed members of it? ought you not to exercise discipline there, and inflict punishment on its unworthy members? Do you not in fact thus exercise discipline, and separate from your society unworthy persons – and ought it not to be done in this instance, and in reference to the offender in your church?' Judging and condemning do not go hand in hand within the church. If we did not judge, how would sin in the church be dealt with?

      Now, did I judge you? No; did I condemn you to hell? No.

      What I am doing is taking a biblical stance on correcting your erroneous theology that 'love is all we need'. We ought not embrace anything that leads to sinful behavior, that definitely encompasses our children and how we are to raise them. Training up a child does not mean condoning gender confusion, as I have stated. I also stated we are to discourage this and teach them the ways of the Lord, along with sharing the Gospel of Christ. Is this wrong or erroneous teaching? Is it judgmental? No and no. It only appear that way to those who condone sin, like supporting gender confusion.

      Like

      • Sarah says:

        Lyn,

        I appreciate your passion and fervor, however I do not appreciate continuing to be judged, and therefore condemned, for my own beliefs. I have very simply spelled out for you I do not condone homosexuality as the Bible makes its stance on this very clear. However, this "gender confusion" as I pointed out earlier is a slippery slope argument and if you aren't careful you are committing women to only participating in roles that celebrate their femininity and men to roles that celebrate their masculinity. Again, I will be gracious and acknowledge that this concrete and rigid viewpoint is likely secondary to your new walk with Christ and your own previous struggle with homosexuality. If that is the way you need to view it to get through your day, then so be it. I don't agree with you, and it's OK that we don't agree.

        Non-love does not equal hate. I never accused you of hating me so don't put words in my mouth (or on my page). You should love all of God's children. I don't think love "is all we need", but it is a good place to start. You cannot help and correct the deviant path of homosexuality if you don't establish a relationship based on trust and love with the individual to whom you are preparing to witness. They will shut you out if you start out by telling them how wrong and bad they are. You make your opinions on that topic evident in your posts, and no I am not going to go back through again and point out what you said, you know what you said.

        You quote 1Cor 15:5, with which I am very familiar and this is exactly what I was trying to explain to you was my intent with my first post. It is important to point out error in our ways in our brothers and sisters in Christ. You are right, we are called to rightly judge within the church and that was my intent.

        You most certainly did villify and judge me and my beliefs. It is obvious we are not going to agree on this matter and I have given you multiple examples backing up why you have been graceless (but not hateful) in your correspondance with me. Again, I pray that your heart softens and you can show more love and grace to others in the future.

        You don't need to correct my "erroneous" theology that "love is all we need"– because again I acknowledge that it is important and that we need it, but there is much much more to establishing a relationship with God, the church as a community, and yourself as a believer and professor of the word of God.
        I certainly don't condone the sin of homosexuality ( I have NEVER read in the Bible that 'gender confusion' is sin- because it is not addressed)- but I do think we should love those people and show them God's light and joy in our own lives.

        Like

      • lyn says:

        Where in the world did I state gender confusion leads to homosexuality?! Wow and wow!! I NEVER said that, nor do I believe that…at all. I KNOW where homosexuality is birthed from, I have studied, in depth, this sin. So, let's leave that out of the equation, I never said it, and I don't assume it…enough said.

        I am pretty much done with your continued rant, repeating over and over and over, rehashing your word, accusing, railing, pointing fingers…uuggghhh!!

        I do not adhere to your liberal theology, nor do I embrace any of your beliefs. You cannot show, from scripture, support for gender confusion…because it simply isn't there. So, all your ranting is nothing more than your view; it is not and cannot be supported from Scripture. There is no need to continue on with you – you have nothing to stand on biblically.

        Like

  22. lyn says:

    Now, let's look at this statement – 'Given your background and your relatively new walk with Christ, I understand why it is necessary for you to view this topic in a black/white, good vs bad, concrete fashion.'
    I attended a church with professing Christians who claimed they'd walked with the Lord for 40 years, and yet, they were clueless on essential doctrines of the faith – like regeneration, depravity, soteriology, repentance, election, limited atonement, etc. So, you cannot judge the 'fruit' of a professing believer by number of years supposedly spent in the Lord, but by the evidence of God working in them. These professing Christians all held to a gospel that lets you 'decide for Christ', or 'invite Him into your heart', or 'raise your hand if you want to accept Jesus' – of course, all this is a work, which Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly teaches against. Yet, they bore little to no fruit of being regenerated, and knew nothing of the power of the Spirit. So, be careful in judging one's 'Godly wisdom' based on time spent as professing to be a Christian.

    Let's look at things, not 'black and white', but according to God's word. Can you provide scriptural support for condoning gender confusion in children?

    Like

  23. Sarah says:

    Lyn,

    With all due respect, you are the one who has obviously become very angry with this discussion, and therefore are the only one "ranting". I have not ranted, I have only offered you scripture, my beliefs supported by scripture, and encouragment and prayer for you as you continue your journey. I have offered you love and hope. You continue to lash out because I do not believe as you do. I never told you not to believe as you do, nor have I asked you to embrace my "liberal beliefs" (I'm not liberal btw- quite the opposite). You can think or do whatever you want. I only ask that we all (above posters included) not call these people "nasty" or "sick" (they did and you agreed), when we could try to better understand them and how to bring them closer to God through our testimony by showing love,not condemning them (you did, they did). Again, I impress upon you I say this out of love and as a sister in Christ. It's unfortunate that you don't sound comfortable in the church you attend because other members there don't think as concretely as you do. However, you don't know the fruits of their walk with Christ, you do not sit in their prayer closet, and you do not know your heart. These people may have more wisdom than you think. Also, you guided me to your background via your blog, and I can tell you are a newer Christian by your circular, non-specific, and concrete arguments. That's not necessarily a bad thing and again I encouraged you to continue to seek the word of God. I hope you do.

    You and I both cannot provide scriptural support for condoning or not condoning "gender confusion" because it doesn't exist, unless of course you contort the word to fit your purposes as you have previously done in your posts.

    You profess your depth of study into homosexuality yet you can't acknowledge that sexual orientation and "gender confusion" are at least somewhat related?? You are more likely to reach a child with understanding, respect, and support. A non-judge-mental approach will gain trust and put you in a better position to help him or her through these difficult times. The worst thing you can do at this time is shame the child, lose their trust, and tell them that God will "judge and have wrath" on them for their expressions of themselves.

    After seminary, my husband and I were missionaries in Russia during the Cold War and witnessed to people who didn't trust us at all because we are Americans. We saved people from a life of darkness (including homosexuals) through love, patience, and kindness, not judgement or telling them that they were "nasty" or "sick". I am certain we would have been ostrasized or worse if we had taken your approach demanding people believe our way or get out of our way.

    Lyn- you sound like you have been through a lot and I hope you continue to seek God and His Word.

    Sarah

    Like

    • lyn says:

      I encourage you to read iamhis-lyn DOT blogspot.com/2012/08/sexual-orientation DOT html

      I also discourage you from using worldly terminology when referring to sin. This post – iamhis-lyn DOT blogspot.com/2012/10/labeled-and-definedwere-all-victims DOT html – addresses the error of labeling and redefining sin.

      Like

      • Sarah says:

        Interesting posts. As I stated earlier, we both certainly agree that homosexuality is sin and the Bible warns against it in multiple places.

        From your own blog-
        As born again believers, we need to stop using worldly terminology such as 'orientation' and phrases like 'struggles with same sex attraction' which are NOT found in the Bible and use words that are, like 'abomination' and phrases like 'flee from sexual immorality'.—

        ********You yourself throw around the term "gender confusion" many times in your above posts. I have read the Bible multiple times and have never heard this term. Neither of us can provide scripture on it because it IS NOT THERE. Again, as I pointed out earlier, it is a man made reference to divide people and distance potential followers of Christ. I also don't think what these little boys are doing is "sexually immoral"- misguided yes, but it is a safe outlet to gain their trust and better understanding into why they are acting this way and an opportunity to reach out to them and witness God's love. Labeling and condemning them breaks that bond of trust.

        Again, from your blog—
        This is where we presently are in society; many professing Christians are terrified to present biblical truth concerning sin because they do not want to seem unloving.

        ********Certainly no one should be "terrified" to profess the scripture because they don't want to seem unloving, but there are tactful and kind ways to approach non-Christians living in sin. Love gets your foot in the door with people who are already intimidated and scared by the church. Once you gain trust of a non-believer by showing them love and kindness as Christians should, then you can introduce Scripture to show them the error of their ways and help them seek repentance.

        The fire and brimstone mentality is why so many people in the world think Christians in general are rigid, unloving, and judgemental. You don't have to condone someone's sin to show them love and it hurts all Christians when we lash out at these people instead of showing them love and guidance as Jesus himself would have done.

        Like

      • lyn says:

        Sarah,

        If you wish to comment on my posts, please do so at my blog. I will NOT address anything you say concerning them on another person's blog. You are welcome to comment at iamhis-lynDOTblogspotDotcom

        Like

      • Sarah says:

        Lyn,

        This is becoming childish. You post links to your blog on this forum and invite my review and potential conversation and then inform me I have posted in the wrong place and you will only respond there? Again, who do you think you are? You certainly have a heightened sense of self importance if you expect someone to follow you all over the Internet to have the opportunity to reply to your blog. Get over yourself. Your pride and deep desire to "always be right" inhibits you from experiencing peace in your relationship and walk with God. With that being said, I am terminating this conversation with you. We have both thoroughly expressed and supported our beliefs and we don't agree. That's ok. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you're wrong, maybe we both are, but I refuse to continue to argue in circles with you and then, amazingly upon your request post where you feel entitled to tell me to post. I love God, I love my church, and I love the people there and the people of ALL walks of life we have the opportunity to spread God's good word to. I wish you well and refuse to continue arguing with you, I have more important and more fulfilling things to do with my life. I hope you have learned that by the time you are my age as I am an old woman now. Best wishes, keep immersing yourself in the Word, and God Bless.

        Sarah

        Like

  24. lyn says:

    sarah

    Do move on

    Like

  25. Sarah says:

    Lyn,

    Likewise. You will continue to be in my thoughts and prayers.

    Sarah

    Like

  26. lyn says:

    Sarah,
    Once again, you have twisted my words, I never said you have posted a response in the wrong place. I did say I will not address my posts on another persons blog, out of respect for their blog. I do not wish to hijack this thread about something I wrote on my personal blog – THAT is why I will not address it here. I do not appreciate your accusations of pride either, I think perhaps we BOTH need to go before the Lord. I should have walked off this merry go round long before now. Live and learn.

    Like

    • Sarah says:

      Lyn- you "hijacked" the blog when you posted your links in the first place. That in and of itself invites a response. My "accusation" is actually a suggestion to let go of whatever it is that makes you lash out like you do. I have unfortunately been the brunt of it all day. I sincerely hope you let go of it and give it to God. I will go before the Lord today as I do everyday, that is nothing new for me. I love him and seek his guidance daily and throughout the day. You're right, you should have. God bless you and you journey.

      Like

  27. lyn says:

    Sarah, as usual, your response is one of accusations and finger pointing. As for being the 'brunt' let me remind you of the harsh string of words you unleashed on me not so very long ago – ". Unlike you I am enjoying my retirement and I am not sitting glued to my computer today seething, foaming at the mouth, gnashing my teeth, and waiting to tear about my next post. Who knows what you do for a living…according to your “beliefs” you probably stay at home and do gender consistent things and don’t work while someone reaps a pay-check for you and supports you. Even worse, you may be at work wasting your employers time. Or the worst, you may be on government assistance and able to work, but choose not to while tax payers keep you up." I did respond to your railing accusation, I refer you back to my response at -September 30, 2013 at 1:39 pm
    I certainly do hope anyone who fits into any of the categories you just mentioned can look past your judgmental rant and see your 'love' for them. sarc

    Anyway, I never hijacked, I sent out an invitation. Did you read the comment with the link? I said ' I encourage'. That does NOT mean I expect you to comment on this thread! How stupid would that be to others who haven't read my posts and see your commenting on them here? The sensible thing is to comment on them where they originated from.

    Like

    • Sarah says:

      Ha! Do you want a gold star for trying to get the last word prideful Lyn? If that's what you want you've got it because I am seriously done replying to your childish rants. Finished. I do love all of those people I referenced, and you too if you are one of them. I was only speculating as to how in the world you would have enough time to post such nonsense all day ( I'll remind you I'm retired). Anyway, love and prayers your way. Blessings.

      Like

  28. lyn says:

    And how do you know I am not retired? You don't, and it really is none of your business. You volunteered your personal information, and that is your decision.
    Again, you attacked me viciously, making all kinds of false and hurtful assumptions, then you have the audacity to accuse me of being prideful.
    Then, you 'cover up' your sin by stating 'I was only speculating'. “For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.” Matthew 12:34
    May God deal with you accordingly.

    Like

  29. lyn says:

    Your liberal views and judgmental words are not the marks of a born again believer Sarah. NO ONE who has been regenerated by God makes these kind of accusations- " Unlike you I am enjoying my retirement and I am not sitting glued to my computer today seething, foaming at the mouth, gnashing my teeth, and waiting to tear about my next post. Who knows what you do for a living…according to your “beliefs” you probably stay at home and do gender consistent things and don’t work while someone reaps a pay-check for you and supports you. Even worse, you may be at work wasting your employers time. Or the worst, you may be on government assistance and able to work, but choose not to while tax payers keep you up.” – and NOT seek forgiveness for offending someone. Instead of seeking forgiveness, you continue on accusing, name calling, belittling, and every other tactic that one would expect an enemy of the cross to use.
    You claim to have so much love, and yet, your words give you away. Your heart is filled with self-righteousness and judgmental words. You spew out hate and disguise it as something else: when your own words are pointed back at you, you disguise your sin and make excuses for it.
    You claim to be a Christian, but the fruit you bear is anything but. You have little to no understanding of God's word and desire only to fight, accuse, label, and name-call, and be divisive. Your actions are hideous, immature, and you need to be called out for what you are…a sinner in dire need of God's mercy. The Bible warns of divisive people – 'Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.' Romans 16:17. Matthew Henry gives excellent commentary on this text, " "Mark those who cause divisions and offences. Our Master had himself foretold that divisions and offences would come, but had entailed a woe on those by whom they come (Mat_18:7), and against such we are here cautioned. Those who burden the church with dividing and offending impositions, who uphold and enforce those impositions, who introduce and propagate dividing and offending notions, which are erroneous or justly suspected, who out of pride, ambition, affectation of novelty, or the like, causelessly separate from their brethren, and by perverse disputes, censures, and evil surmisings, alienate the affections of Christians one from another – these cause divisions and offences, contrary to, or different from , the doctrine which we have learned. Shun all necessary communion and communication with them, lest you be leavened and infected by them."

    No stars for me, just praying for God to work repentance in your sinful heart.

    Like

    • Sarah says:

      Wow, Lyn. You just can't let it go can you. You must get the last word, get your gold star. I feel so sorry for you and your anger. It comes from deep within and I as a born again CHRISTIAN because my soul was bought by the blood of the Lamb will continue to pray for you as I have promised to do all throughout this discussion.

      "Liberal views and judgmental words"—nice, Lyn. First, the only thing I profess liberally is love for all of God's children without discretion of their beliefs. Despite your very judgemental attack on me, I still love you.

      I did "accuse" you if sitting at your computer and gnashing teeth waiting on my posts because no matter what I said, even with tact and love, you viciously attacked me and the people I defended. YOU VICIOUSLY attacked ME. I won't apologize for speculating as to what you do during the day. Thats speculation, not accusation. I am sorry if it hurt your feelings because I didn't intend to hurt your feelings and it is obvious that was hurtful to you.

      And now you are claiming I am not a believer? You don't know me, you don't know the fruits of my labor for God. I will say it again, I am a dinner and have grace only by his Glory. I seek his guidance daily.

      With respect to being divisive… I am the one that has said all along- include these families and children- show them Gods power! You want to be divisive and set up factions. You are right, if someone is being divisive it is best to cut them off and pray for them.

      Maybe that's what I need to do for you. Continue to pray God will touch your soul and open your mind and heart and just stop communication with you. Again- I sincerely wish you well Lyn. No sarcasm like you hurled at me. I really pray for you and hope you are blessed. Please stop attacking me. It's not what Christians do. I WILL NOT respond to any more of your judgements, accusations, or belittling of me or the people I have tried to defend. Blessings to you Lyn. Godspeed.

      Like

  30. lyn says:

    Rose,

    I know you will be edified in reading Pink's writings. You can read much of his stuff on line for free, if you like, by going to pbministries DOT org/books/pink/index DOT htm
    I really was blessed when I read his writings on the attributes of God, and the sovereignty of God; there is a lot of 'good stuff' at that website!

    As of late, I have been blessed in reading the works of Ruth Bryan, a relatively unknown dear sister who lived from 1805-1860. Her passion and heart for Christ and her utter dependency on Him has really struck a chord with me. Her trials are of great encouragement, her struggles identical to mine. God has used what He gave to her to encourage me, and to draw me closer to Him. I am sharing the link to some of her 'choice' writings in a collection put together at gracegems DOT org/Bryan/BRYAN%20collection DOT html

    Here is a small 'sample' of Ruth's writings…
    "Happy, oh, so happy, in the love of Jesus—yes, in Jesus Himself; for it is in Him I begin my heaven, and have my all. Much privileged at the family altar, and very loath to leave it. "Bless the Lord, O my soul." How the world has lessened and deadened to me lately I cannot tell. It seems a very nothing, and vanity indeed; and to see the living ones gathering its golden dust, and playing with its tinsel toys, is monstrous. Oh, come away, you foolish ones, and leave the ash-heap, and rise into Christ—your priceless inheritance and your eternal riches! "But I have no power." And are you digging for power under those clods of the valley, where you seem to be exhausting all your energies? What find you there, that you work so eagerly? When you have dug out and heaped up a mountain of shining dust, will you have more power then to rise with Jesus? Do you think it comes that way? Preposterous! It is like saying I cannot get fire, and then plunging the last warm coal you possess into water."
    "Afresh, precious, precious Jesus, I resign this body to You, for doing or suffering, for living or dying. Will You accept it? Will You use me for Your glory more than heretofore, that You may have some little return for all the benefits You have done to me? Oh, do grant this request; my heart longs for it, my spirit pleads for it; and "if You will, You can." You know the hot temptation of which I am the subject. Bring Your glory out of it, and keep me from the evil, and it shall be well."

    I know you will be blessed in what I have shared. May our Lord shower you this day with His love, His tender mercies, and His compassionate heart.

    Like

    • Rose says:

      Thank you, Lyn. I will check out the links. I do read some on line, but really like having an actual book in my hand so I can mark it up if I need to and go back and reread the best parts. I have never heard of Ruth Bryan, but what you quoted was amazing. Oh for faith like hers!

      Like

      • lyn says:

        Rose,
        I too prefer to have a book in hand, to underline, hi-light, etc. As for Ruth Bryan, yes, her faith is amazing. What God wrought in her is so rare in our day, such devotion and loyalty. Her desire was only for Christ, her intimacy with her Lord ran deep. I have to second what you said, 'oh, for a faith like hers!'

        Like

  31. Sharon says:

    "In this meaningless life of mine, I have seen both of these: a righteous man perishing in his righteousness, and a wicked man living long in his wickedness.

    Do not be overrighteous, neither be overwise- why destroy yourself?
    Do not be overwicked, and do not be a fool, why die before your time?"

    [Ecclesiastes 7: 15-18]

    Like

    • Sarah says:

      Bravo Sharon. I agree with you 100%.

      Like

    • lyn says:

      Sharon, these are good verses to bring to the table; Solomon is giving a warning to those who are 'over-righteous'. As John Gill, a bible scholar and theologian who was born in 1697 states 'a show and ostentation of righteousness, and of such who would be thought to be more righteous and holy than others, and therefore despise those who, as they imagine, do not come up to them'. In short, somebody who thinks all others do not measure up to their standard of righteousness, it's a pride-induced view of one's own self and personal set of standards. The opposite of that extreme is going headlong into sin, and reaping the repercussions of that.

      Well done Sharon, this is a gentle rebuke. May the Lord be praised.

      Like

  32. Nicole says:

    Born again or not, what a pride-filled exchange took place above. I cannot quote chapter and verse, but I do know that God loves us and keeps us.

    Please realize that words, written or spoken, can be fire brands that may never be removed.

    I pray for you.

    Like

  33. Cherie c. says:

    I just read the comments on this post and frankly I am asking myself Lyn why you would continue to argue with someone who is clearly not in the Faith. Can you not see you have been set up? Love is the new cover for denying God's Word. Love is the new hate because true love is to do as God commands and people do not want to give up their pride in order to see sin as God does.

    Good try, but after the first rant, you should have had a clue that this person does not want to be taught the Word of God. People who play the love card have no idea that Jesus was a man of sorrows, Isaiah 53:3 Jesus cursed Bethsaida because of unbelief, Matthew 11:21, that He hates lip service, Matthew 15:8, that He does not like sentimentality because it gives into flesh:

    Matthew 16:22-24

    22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

    23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

    Peter did not want Jesus to die. But Jesus had to die. Peter's sentimentality was not considered love by our Lord.

    Some of the things of God do not agree with our flesh so we tend to say, "
    God would not do that" Um….He sent His Son to die for a sinful humanity. His Son who knew no sin. Came down from Glory to this awful world of sin. Um…The Bible says about God the Father-

    Isaiah 53:10
    Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

    I hope the next time you pause before you engage in another exchange like this one. I can imagine it wearied you to the bone. This type of exchange only hurts the name of Jesus. It does not exalt the name of Jesus, because it allows the person not getting they are in error more opportunity to make a mockery out of the Word of God.

    Like I said, this post is old, but I hope you have learned a lessen. Oh, do not give up trying to correct and teach (women) just know when enough is enough. I thank God for your effort. Conviction hurts and many shy away from it.

    Remember dear sister:

    Proverbs 9:8
    Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

    See, true love is found in the Bible in the form of discipline. To God be the Glory.

    your sister in Christ Jesus,
    Cherie c.

    Like

    • lyn says:

      Hi Cherie,

      I agree with you, which is why I posted this in a response to Rose, " I should not have tarried on with this woman as long as I did, she obviously has no ears to hear. " – that was posted on Sept. 30 at 9:43 pm.

      Thank you for the gentle rebuke, my passion and zeal carried me farther than I should have gone. I do pray not to make that mistake again.

      Like

      • Cherie says:

        Hi Lyn,

        I only wrote you because I have been there and wanted to let you know I have been there too.. But in our zeal for truth with those who outright refuse to yield to the Word of God in Context, only work to weaken us so that we cannot deflect the arrows coming from the other direction.

        I will lift up this deceived woman in prayer. And you because I am sure this exchange hits the heart a bit. We strive to be an ambassador for Christ and then we fall into the trap. It is all part and parcel of our faith. Testing comes and sometimes we meet it and sometimes we don't. No matter, as long as we endure to the end. Repent when we need to, seek forgiveness and then try to live as the Word says we should. The battles won't end dear sister until the Lord returns.

        We must pray also for the parents and children of this terrible deception of gender redefining. It is not God's way, but then again, sin is sin. I do not judge the world because I was once them, but we do need to point out error no matter who it is. Only God knows if our efforts will help someone come to a saving knowledge of Jesus.

        Stay the course so we can also say as Paul wrote by inspiration of the God the Holy Spirit:

        2 Timothy 4:7-8

        7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

        8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

        I just love that passage. May God continue to bless and keep you in Him.

        your sister in Christ Jesus,
        Cherie c.

        Like

      • lyn says:

        Thank you Cherie, I am grateful to God for your concern and for your prayers. I definitely am in need of prayer.

        The battle is intensifying all over the globe, with professing Christians embracing and defending things like gender confusion. But, just as you said, it will not end until our Lord returns.

        Those verses from 2 Timothy are excellent, thank you for posting them. I do pray to keep the proper focus, with that said, I should not tarry too long if I keep my mind on Christ.

        May our Lord bless and keep us, and lead us into the way everlasting.

        Like

      • Cherie c says:

        Amen and have a great day.

        Like

  34. Cherie c. says:

    "lesson" Spelling doesn't count anymore, does it? =D

    Like

  35. Cherie c. says:

    What they are doing to the children is an abomination. My mom was a nurse for 40 years and she told me about some of the children who were born with both sex organs or none. This is a tragic time for these parents. She said that some parents would wait on the surgery to see which sex the child was by behavior. Not a scientific way but it gave them an opportunity to observe which sex, male or female they leaned toward.

    There is no clear cut answer for these things all the time, but to take gender identified children and try and change that gender is so wrong. The children are victims in this; the parents are greatly deceived. philosophy, psychology and self-esteem (a new way to dress up pride) is a doctrine of man and a lie from the pit of hell. I am broken and wearied over the sin in this world. Some days it is just hard to take. Repent, ask for forgiveness and mercy. Forgive those who have trespassed against you. Just saying.

    Like

  36. Cherie says:

    LOL, sorry about the redundant sentence, but you know what I mean.

    Cherie c.

    Like

  37. Sarah says:

    Cherie,

    Thank you for lifting me up in prayer as you mentioned in your previous post. You are a kind and Godly woman.

    Sarah

    Like

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