Christian colleges and churches “shaken” by pagan craze

harlem-shakeBy now you’re probably seen the viral “Harlem Shake” videos that are sweeping the nation with new versions uploaded to YouTube daily. If you haven’t, here’s how they work: First you see a subdued, well-behaved group or crowd. Suddenly you hear music audio declaring, “Con Los Terroristas!” A sole individual is then seen dancing while wearing a helmet or mask, while the others seem oblivious to the gyrations in their midst. When the song breaks into “Do the Harlem Shake!” the video cuts and shows the room filled with people in costumes dancing wildly and seductively. It is reminiscent of the Golden Calf scene in the Ten Commandments movie.

Here are students at The Cape Coral Vineyard Ministry:

Everyone’s doing it, including Christian colleges, and church youth groups. Christian News Network has gathered video from Rick Warren’s Saddleback high school ministry, the late Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University, Providence Christian CollegeKentucky Christian University, St. Louis Christian CollegeNorthwest University and Cedarville University have all uploaded footage online of their youth breaking out dancing — sometimes with sensual and suggestive moves, and little clothing.

“It would seem that these institutions are in full sync with this culture rather than a witness to the lost,” stated Pastor David Whitney of Cornerstone Evangelical Free Church in Pasadena, Maryland.

A video uploaded by a student at Cedarville University video shows male students dancing in their underwear, with two of the men making sexual poses at each other. One Liberty University video captures a student sporting a yellow shirt with the words “I pee in pools” as he gyrates on top of a couch with his shirtless friends. Another video from Liberty, entitled, “Two Men, One Dorm,” shows two men dancing sexually with one male wearing only a pair of spandex.

“Weird that these are the same kind of LU kids that say homosexuality is a sin,” wrote one commenter.

One of a number of Liberty University “Harlem Shake” videos posted to YouTube

“It’s going on all over the country,” said Dave Moquin, Associate Pastor of Thomas Road Baptist Church in Lynchburg, Virginia, where many Liberty University students attend church. “It’s really a situation of a bunch of young people getting together being silly.”

Moquin told Christian News Network, however, that the church has not taken a position on whether “The Harlem Shake” is inappropriate.

“The church is not taking any type of position because we don’t feel we need to take a position,” he said, but noted, “It’s not something that we would promote or be a part of it.”

“Liberty University has a code of conduct that was established by its founders and which is enforced by student leadership and the Conduct Office,” said Vice President of Communications, Johnnie Moore. “Our Conduct Office will take appropriate action in instances where the code of conduct is violated.”

Moore declined to comment on whether an any action will be taken or whether the student behavior depicted in the videos conflicted with the university’s mission to “impact the culture for Christ.”

Cedarville University in Ohio, however, confirmed that officials will be addressing responsible individuals after being notified about a “Harlem Shake” video of a number of male students dancing in their underwear and making sexual poses. Mark Weinstein, the Executive Director of Public Relations for Cedarville University in Ohio, told Christian News Network that the behavior of the students “was inappropriate and not in line with the values” of the university.

“The university will deal with this matter swiftly and appropriately,” Weinstein vowed.

“The Harlem Shake” in the House of God?

Numerous churches from across the nation are also recording themselves doing “The Harlem Shake,” including Celebration Church in Jacksonville, Florida, City Church Downtown in San Antonio, Texas, Sandals Church in Riverside, California, Champions Centre in Tacoma, Washington, Crosspoint Church in Nashville, Tennessee and Destiny World Outreach Center in Killeen, Texas.

City Church Downtown features the video prominently on the home page of their church website, as it begins with a helmeted individual dancing in the aisle while the pastor is preaching a sermon. It then cuts to the entire congregation dancing in party style, and some standing on their chairs while the strobe lights flash. C3 Church in Australia even recorded a “Harlem Shake” video while reenacting Jesus’ death on the cross.

Pastor John Wyatt

John Wyatt, the Executive Pastor of Celebration Church in Jacksonville, Florida, said that he believes the videos are harmless fun and can be used as an evangelistic tool.

“The Harlem Shake was a fun element for our Sub30 service that night,” he wrote in an email response to Christian News Network, explaining the young adult and college ministry video that is posted online. “In that context, we believe fun elements in our services help us reach people for Christ, which is always our primary goal.”

However, Scott Brown, the director of the National Center for Family-Integrated Churches and elder at Hope Baptist Church in Wake Forest, North Carolina, said that he unequivocally finds “The Harlem Shake” to be out of place.

“When a Christian institution participates in these types of things, they are simply writing Ichabod on their door for all the world to see: ‘the glory of the Lord has departed,’” he said. “The true people of God do not emulate worldly movements and personalities. The Bible says, ‘Do not learn the ways of the heathen.’”

Pastor David Whitney

Pastor Whitney agreed.

“I am surprised that this is a craze among churches, Christian colleges and ministries,” he stated. “This seems entirely out of place for a church, Christian college or ministry to be promoting if they are truly serious about making disciples of Jesus Christ.”

“Imagine the Lord Jesus or Paul, Silas or Barnabas performing these lewd acts,” Brown lamented. Is this an expression of the new man — holiness, purity, wisdom [and] love?”

He stated that the fact that some of the videos are coming out of youth ministries as opposed to church services does not lessen the concern.

Scott Brown

“It shows the world the kind of bankruptcy that exists in modern youth ministries,” Brown stated. “The church has long suffered under the weight of the creation of youth culture. This craze is just one expression of how destructive and defiling it is to do so.”

Both Whitney and Brown cautioned other churches and Christian colleges from participating in the fad.

“Does this reflect anything good that is promoted in Scripture?” Brown asked. “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.”

“Any church even considering making such a video ought to think twice about why it even exists as an institution,” Whitney said bluntly. “If you wish to follow the world, why pretend to be a disciple of Jesus Christ at all?”   (SOURCE)

Indeed. Take a look at this video and tell me if the Church is getting more seductive by the day:

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203 Responses to Christian colleges and churches “shaken” by pagan craze

  1. Sharon W. says:

    Sad to say, there are probably many churches which already have "Ichabod" written on their front door, and many more which are slated for the same fate if they don't "turn around & change their ways"…they just don't see it….kind of like, "it's the church down the street, but it's not us. We do such-n-such, or we have all these programs or ___(?)___". Church of Laodicea anyone?


    • Monica says:

      I think the churches you guys need to worry about aren't the ones doing the Harlem Shake. Watch out for the ones being hypocrites, or the ones putting the focus on the issues that are not urgent.THAT, to me, is evil getting into your word. It's in disguise, so watch out! lol


  2. Darrel says:

    This is a mockery of the Lord Jesus Christ, the cross upon which He died, and the worship due unto Him. It is demon worship. It is an invitation to a sexual orgy of the mind and the full bodily implementation of what the mind invisions will not be far behind.
    This IS the judgment of God beginning at the house of God-1Peter 4:17. It is also God giving these people over to a debased mind-Rom. 1:28-which is the last "giving up/over" of Rom.1. More evidence that the great falling away is upon us in ever increasing force and reality.
    Even so, come, Lord Jesus!


    • Monica says:

      WHAT does this have to do with the cross, Jesus Christ, or ANY of that? These comments confuse me!


    • Aris says:

      I agree that this is a mockery to the Holy Trinity. Lord forgive them for they do not know what their doing their flesh have corrupted their mind, and soul (worldly pleasure).

      While nuclear war is being talked about all over the world, 4,000 innocent babies are murdered everyday/monthly in the U.S., sex trafficking is all over the world, this church is promoting (sensuality/sex, and sodomy), occultism is every where, famine and pestilence are rampant, instead of praying and asking God for help and saving more souls here is the church wasting times, distracting the body of Christ with this filth. Great! Repent, turn away from sin, humble thyselves and God from heaven will hear your prayers.


      • Aris says:

        Didn't the bible says, we should keep ourselves blameless before the world so when the world look at us they know we are one accord and we are in Christ Jesus. If you find nothing wrong in this church and video, you need to evaluate your relationship with Christ, read the bible and God will let you know that this kind of behavior is evil. If you're pride tells you nothing is wrong with this, young lady and young sir, the Holy Spirit is not in you, you might not even save at all because your heart is not right with God.


      • Rose Vosburgh says:

        Yes, indeed, all of what you said above and also Christians around the world who are this very moment being tortured, beaten, imprisoned, having their homes and churches burned down…for the cause of Christ. What would they think if they saw these videos of our American youth girating around like heathens before the golden calf? And how will these young people handle true persecution when it comes to America? To them, everything has to be fun and entertaining or they quickly lose interest. I fear for them…because persecution IS coming.. the party will be over and they will not be equipped on how to handle hard times.


      • tonykeywest says:

        what would they think You know what they think . that the church in america is apostate.


  3. Christina says:

    The worst part, is when there are students "praying" and "reading" their Bibles right before jumping into the pagan dancing. The videos are blasphemous enough without even adding that mockery.


    • Monica says:

      I really don't see how this is blasphemy, lol. Do you even KNOW the correct definition of that word? How is it blasphemy? Please do extrapolate on that.


  4. Jared says:

    This is just poor journalism and a misrepresentation of the various sources and churches. The Harlem Shake was obviously never meant to debase the cross. It was quite apparent that the purpose of it was to display the air of celebration for the enemies of the cross when Jesus died.

    It should be telling that a large number of the churches and colleges out there find nothing wrong with it. There may be individuals in the videos that take it a little too far, but if we can't trust the people who spend their life studying the Bible to judge whether their students (whom they know far better than we do) are acting in a debase way, who can we trust? Should we trust the people who use the movie version of the 10 Commandments as their standard of what is wrong?

    I would challenge us, as Christians, as followers of the Word, to live like Christ and judge the heart rather than the outside. So, tell me, who here can do that? And who here knows the context of each of these videos. Put with the right background music, or narration, I can make fervent worship look like mockery every time.


    • Monica says:

      Love this, and totally agree 110%.


      • Jared says:

        Thank you, Monica. I just don't like how they used their sources, and the way in which they portrayed these videos. It doesn't line up with my experiences with college students, and it doesn't line up with my studies of the Scriptures.

        To me, it is, at most, a matter of whether this is beneficial or not. I don't see this as being one of the un-permissable things that Paul was talking about. And if that's the case, you can really only make that determination if you are there. My understanding of discernment is that it should take into account personal knowledge of the situation, and specifically should be agreed upon by leaders in that congregation/community. That seems to be the biblical model, though perhaps we could say that Paul's letters to the churches, telling them what they were doing wrong, is an instance where this was not the case. However, Paul knew those churches intimately, in most cases, and was receiving direct reports. So…

        I don't know how to judge these situations specifically, even though I see nothing wrong with them.


      • Monica says:

        Well the best way to judge things is NOT to judge them. That'ssomething i've learned, having been a Biblical Languages major in college, studying Scriptures extensively, AND having been a pastor's wife, we recently left the ministry. I was sincerely hoping one of these religious nuts would seemy comments and show me Christ. Instead, more hate. Just hate.


    • Aris says:

      oh my your comment tickled my ear that really made me feel good it is so heartfelt. awww you are so sweet. NOT!!! I disagree with you. Run away as fast as you can from that church and the people teaching it. Please read the book of Ephesians, you might changed your mind with this worldly views. Are you really save? Wait let me guess, did you combine the word of God and the world's idea so that you can try to fit everyone it so that you will not discriminate others. I'm sad about this. The beginning of sorrow is at hand. Lord help us.


      • Monica says:

        You're not sad, you're cruel. Are YOU saved??? Who are you to ask someone that? WOW. Is that what YOUR Jesus would do? And the beginning of sorrow is NOT at hand, friend, we are in the midst of it. We are not talking about sin here, we're talking about dancing! Let me guess: you don't let your women wear makeup, short hair, jewelry, etc. You're probably in one of those cults and call yourselves Christians. THAT is sad. Lord help YOU.


      • Aris says:

        Monica, read the bible. Humble yourself before God. Ask Him for wisdom, guidance. Repent and turn away from your sins. You are responding this way because you are blinded by how should being Christian be, you want Christianity to fit your lifestyle, this is my impressions of your response. God is the creator of all things, so His rules should reign not men.


  5. btw:

    also did this as well.

    I recently mentioned Nebraska Christian College being a Seeker-Driven and Emergent "Christian" College


    maybe it time for David Haynes and Robert Milliken and Barry Stackhouse at NCC

    and (as well as NCC 's church partners)

    Wildewood Christian Church of Papillion Nebraska

    First Christian Church of Council Bluffs Iowa

    Stonebridge Christian Church of Omaha Nebraska

    Kingsway Christian Church of Omaha Nebraska

    Florence Christian Church of Omaha Nebraska

    Pilgrim Christian Church of Omaha Nebraska

    Benson Church of Christ of Omaha Nebraska

    Calvary Christian Church of Bellevue Nebraska

    Eastside Christian Church of Council Bluffs Iowa

    First Christian Church of Norfolk Nebraska

    Morningside Church of Christ of Sioux City Iowa

    leaders folks to wake up and see how dumbed down NCC is getting and WAKE UP to what is happening at NCC

    btw: Calling me scary and "crazy" for using Discernment and Raising Concerns about NCC

    like some folks I know at the churches I listed who think I am scary for using Discernment

    Need to wake up and see what is happening


    to those churches I mentioned. I dont hate you or have any personal beefs. I wish you would WAKE UP to how the seeker driven and emergent nonsense is spirutally killing churches and "christian" colleges.

    to my "friends" who go to those churches I mentioned.

    If u hate me for using Discernment, and hate me for speaking the truth about some False Teachers

    than obviously hate the bible (see 1 Timothy 4:1 and 2 Timothy 4:3-4 and 1 John 4:1) and maybe it time for u to do some serious soul searching and research and not blindly follow people cause NCC is peddling them.


  6. Monica says:

    This is definitely interesting, however seems kinda like a "demon behind every bush" scenario. How about we try to actually FACE sin and DEAL with it, rather than creating sin where there is none? How about you christians take a good look at yourselves and your daily lives, hearts, and minds before judging a silly little video.With all that is going on in your world, your churches, it is mind-boggling to me that THIS is where you waste your time. Or perhaps I'm not so surprised after all…. To me, this is like the whole Halloween debate. Perhaps pagan roots or similarities, but modern day interpretation is just playful innocence.


  7. Darrel says:

    Jared & Monica,
    You are showing your true colors by your non-sensical comments and the fact that you not only accept this, but relish in it as well. Doesn't matter whether you agree with me or not, it is still demon worship. The Holy Spirit does not reside within a person and allow him/her to worship demons. The Holy Spirit resides only in those who been regenerated and delivered from their sins. It is impossible for anyone who is born again to worship demons. Worship demons if you must, but know that your eternal soul will pay the penalty for it's own sins unless you repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.


    • Jared says:

      You are creating an illogical argument. First, you are making a currently unsubstantiated claim that dancing, in this particular fashion, is demon worship. Then, you are rightfully claiming demons cannot rightfully reside in someone in whom the Holy Spirit is residing. So, you come to the conclusion that these people who were formally Christians are no longer Christians because now a demon is residing in them. In a sense, you are saying that the demon kind of pushed the Holy Spirit out because they did a dance that is a cultural phenomenon.

      The easier, more rational assumption, is that the Holy Spirit, in fact, prevents demons from entering someone who may be performing a dance, unaware that it may (though yet to be proven) resemble some form of deity worship. Your God is much smaller than mine, it seems, and you ignore Paul's understanding of God's forgiveness.

      Furthermore, you are assuming that worship is an involuntary act–that if you raise your hands to God, even if you are really thinking about your spouse/significant other, that it is still devout worship to God. Or, and this is a better analogy to what you are saying, that someone can stub their toe, fall on their knees in pain, and God is up there in heaven saying, "Oh, looks like Darrel is worshipping me, again." How can these devout followers of God suddenly be worshipping demons by accident? I don't see that kind of fear based Christianity in the New Testament.

      And, to be honest, it does matter if I agree with you or not, because you are judging the Church. If your claims are valid, then we are right to respond, but the only way to determine if your claims are valid is to test them. So, if you really do care about these churches, you will engage in an honest discussion, hoping to come to a helpful conclusion about how to respond. Same is true for Joshua of Omaha.

      We are all part of the same Church, so we have to get rid of our "us and them" mentality.

      Also, I do not appreciate the ad hominem attack, saying that my comment was non-sensical. If you consider part of my argument false, please address it specifically, and I will respond with humility and tact, because I wish to discuss, not hurl insults. I would like this to be a safe place for discussion.


      • Monica says:

        Agreed again. Jarred and I have a right to our opinions. Rather than being so mean and attacking us, how about pulling us to your side with love. And intelligence. I also agree that a believer has eternal security, ie once saved always saved. I DO agree that demons cannot enter a born again spirit-filled Christian, which is what makes Darrel's ignorance abundantly clear and disheartening. And mean, man,just mean!!


      • Aris says:

        Monica, it isn't being mean it is setting people free from lies. The book of John mentioned, the truth hurts but it will set you free. If you're rejecting the truth and you would rather embrace the lies of the enemy that is your heart, that is between your relationship with God and you will be judge on the judgement day for your good deeds, such as fighting for the truth God mentioned a crown for that, this is one of the crown, there are more. You should know evil as soon as you encounter it if you are saved. God gave us the gift of the Holy Spirit to discern evil and to convict us of the truth.

        We as the body of Christ have an obligation to rebuke one another if we see something wrong that are brother and sister are doing, we are supposed to tell them and the one receiving the rebuked should have a humble heart, ask God for wisdom, understanding, guidance and forgiveness. Then one must repent, turn away from sin and continue growing in the word, in the likeness of Christ until the day of judgment.


    • Monica says:

      You, sir, are what is wrong with the American church and why my family and I left it. What you said to me and Jared was harsh, cruel, and against EVERYthing you SAY you stand for. Demon worship?!? I hope you enjoy making strangers cry your heartless zealot. Signed, PASTOR'S WIFE.


    • maryanne says:

      Very good response Daniel!


    • Scott says:

      Guys. I hate to break it to you, but the Harlem shake is not about worshipping pagan gods or the Christian devil. In my entire pagan life, I have never heard of dancing like that to appease any non-christian god. I'm agreeing with Jarred and Monica when they say the Harlem shake is harmless fun. Coming from a pagan, it has nothing to do with my religion.


  8. Aris says:

    First of I'm not a perfect person at all. I have my share of breaking God's law. I was once lost but now I'm found. Thank you Jesus Christ for redeeming from all of my sins; past, present and future. Everyday I ask God to cleanse and wash me because I know even being saved I still need daily purification from God to be as pure as gold. The bible says we are supposed to turn away from the world but this church is promoting the world. Now, this video, it is an embarrassing to God. It is God's house and these fake Christians are bringing their own doctrines and pleasures!!!

    If you love Christ Jesus abandoned the old man and make way to the new man the inner man which is the Holy Spirit. What is so holy about this? are they even reading God's word? If they are reading and spending time with God's word, the word will tell them and the Holy Spirit will convict them that this is evil. These kids are too entertained and that what's make them want to come to church it isn't even the word anymore.


  9. j says:

    We can all agrue until were blue in the face. When God calls sin sin he means it. We so called christians and churches need to take a stand against this.
    I wonder how long it's going to be before God sends done his judgement upon us?


    • Monica says:

      Please do extrapolate on this: what about it is sinful? What about YOU is NOT sinful? This page is supposed to be "Stand up for the TRUTH". What a joke. How many of you have actually studied Greek and Hebrew? Let's discuss the syntax of these issues and then we'll have a real discussion.


      • Aris says:

        Monica, do not let your pride take over you. God is not impress with your education neither do I. The bible is the only source we need in this discussion, to set people free from the lies of the devil.


      • Monica says:

        Agreed 100%. So again, I ask, please extrapolate on this. Show me Scripture that says that dancing is sin.


  10. Chelsea says:

    Can we please get back to the discussion at hand, specifically regarding the harlem shake. Passing judgement on people we do not know via the internet rarely if ever produces any positive results, only negative feedback, anger and resentment. All of which are ugly characteristics not befitting of someone who would call themselves a Christian. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

    Back to the harlem shake: Lewd, vulgar behavior is something that is not at all becoming of someone who claims to be Christian. It is inappropriate and not of God. However, that being said, not all these videos are inappropriate. I would point to the ones I have linked to below (done by churches) as proof that not all these churches are giving credence to inappropriate behavior. Rather, this song is an outlet (for mostly student ministry groups) to dance in a silly fashion and be the goofy, unique, energetic, silly kids that God created them to be. Would I say that I am in support of linking this video to Christ's death and resurrection? Not particularly. But is the inappropriate actions of some enough to condemn everyone? Hardly. Where people are in their hearts is something they need to deal with between themselves and God, we by no means are able to judge and say where someone is with their relationship with Christ. That would be blasphemous, and claiming that we have omniscience, something only God has. Additionally, many people falter in their walk with Christ. Does that justify their actions when apart from Him? No. But a fire and brimstone condemnation message is not going to make returning to their faith happen. Rather, it may force the opposite. Should inappropriate actions be addressed and labeled as wrong? Yes. But not in such a hateful, condemning way. "Instead, speaking the truth in LOVE, we will in all things grow up into Him, who is the head, that is Christ."


    • Monica says:

      Thank you so much for putting what is on my heart into words. ❤


    • Bryce says:

      Let's pray for these kids: that they may be allowed to mature in their faith, that they may be filled with the Holy Spirit, that they may discern what pleases the Lord, and that they may walk in the fullness of Christ all of their days. Amen.


  11. LJ says:


    When Is It Time to Leave a Church? 9:39AM EST 2/27/2013 J. Lee Grady
    1. No accountability.
    2. Spiritual elitism.
    3. Entrenched immorality.
    4. An authoritarian spirit.
    5. Unbridled greed.
    6. False doctrines and manifestations.
    7. A culture of pride.


  12. Darrel says:

    Lewd acts with sexual overtones will never be considered worship of the true and Living God. All too many of which were homosexual in nature.
    When the Holy Spirit takes up residence in a believer it is for ever. Plainly: once saved, always saved.
    You assumed that these in the video are saved, I do not. They show graet disrespect for the One whom they claim to be worshipping.
    It is you who have trouble with the definition of forgiveness. Forgiveness never equals a license to continue in sin. For a person to claim to be saved and still continue in their sin of choice makes that person a false witness of Christ and they are still in their sins.
    It is you that are assuming things about involuntary worship-since there is no such thing.
    As far as judging the church is concerned, that is not my job. It is my job to stand for the faith and expose the evil (especially of false "brothers") and point to Scripture as I did before, but you seem to have chosen to ignore the verses cited or you would not have accused me of being the one who is judging the church-again that is the Lord's business, not mine.
    There is really not much left for discussion, if you revere the Word of God as the final authority in this matter. If you have been taught that this "dance" honors God, you have been taught error. If you've been taught that sin in any form is ok (including homosexuality) you've been told a lie. If you been taught that the Bible is just a good guide and not really the Word of God to man you've been taught a lie. This is why your argument made (makes) no sense.
    Now is a good time to examine what you really believe and what your beliefs are based upon-the Word of God or some man's fantasy.


  13. Darrel says:

    You have assumed that I considered these dancers born again Christians, I do not.
    If you consider my words to be harsh and cruel and unloving, then consider the words of the Lord Himself:
    "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your Name, cast out demons in Your Name and done many wonders in Your Name?' And then I will declare to them 'I never knew you; depart from Me you who practice lawlessness.'"
    If it is unloving to tell you the truth, then I am unloving.
    You have no idea the horrors that await those who are cast into the Lake of Fire, all because they refused to repent and believe on the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    If warning you is casting stones, then stones I will cast.
    If I am but a little angry with those who claim citizenship in heaven and use their bodies to perform lewd acts in the Name of Jesus, just consider how angry He is.


  14. Tim says:

    Someone help me understand why it is wrong for a church youth group or group of kids from a Christian college to do a clean version of this song. The song in and of itself is not bad and unless your implying that all types of dance are bad I just don't get what the problem is? Just because some people chose to dance inappropriately to this particular song it's wrong for everyone?


    • Monica says:

      Yes, Tim, exactly. Don't you wish we were perfect like these beautiful Pharisee friends of ours on here? 😉


      • Rose Vosburgh says:

        I think if you could spend just one day in Syria, Egypt. Iran, Patistan, or North Korea and experience first hand what it like to be a Christiian in those countries…suffering daily what Christians there endure. you would not only question whether you truly are one,…..but would gain a whole new perspective on the Amercian Christian church…that is has gone so far apostate that people can't even discern what the church is supposed to be anymore. Yeah, we just need to 'lighten up…they are just having fun, letting off steam, no harm done' to cause of Christ'….Typical post-modern thinking that has infected the church. If I am a 'pharisee' to you because I care about holiness and how Christ is protrayed to the unsaved world..then call me one. And…I hope it makes your day. And, in case you attack me for saying I questioned your salvation…I question my own salvation as I read the stories of what Christians are enduring all over the world and I wonder if I will be as faithful. We need to be sober minded in these times…not acting like ninnies as if the return of Christ is not imminent. Wonder how these students will feel if He comes in the middle of one of their girating sessions. I think they will be very ashamed..


      • Monica says:

        You know NOTHING about me or where I have spent my time. What I have been taught, what I believe, what I have been through. I am respectfully trying to bow out of this debate, so PLEASE let me do so without continuing to judge me!!


      • Bro. Nick says:

        Rose Vosburgh – Well said from a Biblical perspective – Thank You.
        I had absolutely no idea that this abomination of compromise was even going on until I read of it today (4 Mar 15). It shows yet another facet of the abomination of Laodiceanism that is 'the norm' here in 'Amerika'!
        While the following from "the word of the LORD" was specifically written to Israel – it has Biblical application to all ungodly behaviour:
        " – Woe to her that is filthy and polluted, to the oppressing city!
        – She obeyed not the voice;
        – she received not correction;
        – she trusted not in the LORD;
        – she drew not near to her God.
        – Her princes within her are roaring lions;
        – her judges are evening wolves; they gnaw not the bones till the morrow.
        – Her prophets are light and treacherous persons:
        – her priests have polluted the sanctuary,
        – they have done violence to the law.
        The just LORD is in the midst thereof; he will not do iniquity: every morning doth he bring his judgment to light, he faileth not;
        – but the unjust knoweth no shame.
        I have cut off the nations: their towers are desolate; I made their streets waste, that none passeth by: their cities are destroyed, so that there is no man, that there is none inhabitant.
        I said, Surely thou wilt fear me, thou wilt receive instruction; so their dwelling should not be cut off, howsoever I punished them:
        – but they rose early, and corrupted all their doings."
        (Zeph 3:1-7 [KJB])

        For those few, the Biblical remnant that are truly "converted" believers and followers of "our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" – prepare to be called all kinds of names and ostracized by most that 'attend church' – for we truly are "peculiar" people in the eyes of 'Apostate Christendom':
        "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh,
        but live according to God in the spirit.
        But the end of all things is at hand:
        be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer."
        (1 Peter 4:6-7 [KJB])

        "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
        Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
        we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
        Looking for that blessed hope,
        and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
        Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
        These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."
        (Titus 2:11-15 [KJB])


  15. J says:

    2 Corinthians 6:17. Revelation 18:4. Isaiah 52:11. Being born and raised in church all my life it grieves me too see how the church is becoming more and more liked the world each and every day.
    As a so called believer I'm realizing more and more each day that I need to read and study God's word. I'm pretty positive that the preachers behind the pulpits are to afraid to stand up and call sin for what it is sin.
    I feel like God is really calling me and telling me to follow him and not a preacher or a church.


    • Bro. Nick says:

      Please read 1 Kings 13: – which addresses your comment. The only thing that is ALWAYS THE TRUTH is "the word of the LORD".
      Proverbs 22:17-21 has also been a great help to me personally.


  16. Jared says:

    I have spent the past four years studying the Bible as the Word of God. I came into that journey with the distinct impression that these kind of things were inherently evil. But the deeper I delved into the sacred, perfect Word of God, the more I realized that God really doesn't care about these kind of things as much as I once thought He did. Or, I should say, perhaps He does, but the Bible doesn't. The written Word of God, as we have it, is much more concerned with other matters. The verses you are using were originally penned to people who were performing explicit acts of worship to other deities. They weren't confused or ignorant of what they were doing.

    If you want me to point you to a verse, I would point you to Namaan, who asks Elisha if it would be all right if, when his master bows in the temple of Rimmon, if he could also bow, if Yhwh would forgive him for that. Elisha tells him to go in peace. I think there are two things we can learn here. 1) That God looks on the heart. Namaan's heart was still pure in God's eyes, despite his actions, and 2) that we can be at peace, not having to constantly worry if our actions are going to be interpreted as anti-God. That way, we can focus on doing good, not having to spend all of our time trying not to do bad.

    So again, do you know the hearts of these people?

    And as for calling all lewd acts with sexual overtones sin…Perhaps this is true. Perhaps there is a better way of living. But that hardly entails demon worship. Sex is quite sexual. Is it bad? If not, then there are at least some instances where sexual acts are not bad. And who determines what is "crude or offensive." It seems to me the only people who are offended are the ones in the church, and not even all of them. So, it is only lewd to you. And no, that is not relativism, just a simple fact. Does it offend God? I don't know. I don't think He's surprised or shocked by it. I have trouble imagining God being shocked. He sees the heart behind the action, which may be evil and perverse, or perhaps it is innocent. Perhaps they are just Namaan.

    On top of that, you are referencing Scriptures that were written to people who were sleeping with temple prostitutes. Those are the lewd acts Paul is talking about. And the homosexual acts? Paul was writing about men having actual sex with other men, and I hardly see that happening in the videos. I don't even really see them pretending to have sex. They are simply doing dance moves that are common in this generation. They are modern Elvis's.

    And my point with "worship", which you failed to realize, is that just because it may resemble something that is deity worship in another culture does not mean it is legitimate deity worship, just as lifting your hands while listening to music does not entail worshipping God. Their hearts are nowhere near that. So, as long as you contend that actions do not equal worship, then I believe we can agree that they are not worshipping demons, unless you want to contradict yourself.

    You have said you do not want to "judge the church." However, it seems you have. You have judged who is in, and who is out. You have decided that these people are out, because you don't like what you see them doing. You don't understand it, and it looks bad. Therefore, they can't possibly be in the Church. However, Jesus said that there are going to be a bunch of people who think they are in, when they are actually out. So perhaps you are right, or perhaps you should look at to whom Jesus was talking. He was talking to the Pharisees, who were the most devout followers of God at that time. When everyone else was giving in to culture, and were becoming more and more like the world around them (it was called Hellenism, by the way), there was one group that stood against it the tide and decided they would follow the Bible as closely as they possibly could–the Pharisees.

    What did God do for them in their devout, pure worship? He criticized them because they lost sight of what was important–the lost, the hurting, those who weren't clean, those who did things the Pharisees didn't like, the poor. Jesus ate delicacies and drank wine with them. They didn't like that. They said He looked too much like the world. If you want me to point you to the Bible, I would point you to four books in particular–Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. They all portray a Jesus who came for those who were on the outside, not those who were "in" (refer to the Prodigal Son). He came, accepting people as they were, not judging them. The only people He judged were the Pharisees–the ones who held as closely to the Law as they possibly could, all the while losing sight of the Greatest Commandment, to love God and their neighbor. Who was their neighbor? The lost, the hurting, and the ones who were considered false worshippers, because they worshipped at the wrong temple (the Samaritans). These were the "demon worshippers."

    And I ABSOLUTELY agree that sin is never good. So, I will play the part of the OT prophet and ask you this: What have you done for those who are lost, hurting, poor, who do things you don't agree with, the ones who worship other gods, the ones in other countries who need clean water or they will die, the ones with AIDS, the ones who need education, the females being circumcised illegally, the ones who are losing their feet because they don't have shoes to protect them from exposed syringes? If you haven't done everything in your power for them, you are also living in sin, the same sin as the Israelites, the same sin that drove them into exile. So, if you can honestly tell me you have done everything in your power for the gays, the democrats, the Muslims, the Buddhists, and those who are dying because they don't have what they need to survive…

    …then go ahead and throw that first stone. And you tell me, in all certainty, that it is going to hit someone who deserves it more than you.


  17. Darrel says:

    You remind me so much of me when I was lost, excusing my sins and constantly looking for ways to justify myself in the eyes of God and those around me, but mostly myself.
    You have not done the things that you now require of me, your neatly packaged social gospel-do you even have a passport?
    However, I am speaking to two people that are self-deceived, seeking to justify their sins by accusing others of doing precisely what they are guilty of, and passing-off as the new norm abberant behavior and calling it "worship" for God. Neither of you have received my words, just like those Pharisees didn't receive His Word.
    I don't need to know or look into your heart-nor do I want to. I can see the rancid fruit hanging all over you and dropping it's poisonous words and beliefs to any who wll listen.
    Since you deem yourself not to be in need of repentance, muchless the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, your future does not look too bright. I will not begrudge you the pleasure you must have. In fact, you may as well fill yourself full of yourself, because that will be as good as things will ever be for you since eternal damnation awaits those who refuse to humble themselves before Almighty God.
    May the Holy Spirit open your eyes to the wickedness that has overcome you. Jer. 17:9


  18. Sharon W. says:

    And the "fruit of the Spirit is self-control"; greek [egkrateia]-self restraint, self mastery
    Galatians 5:23

    In the last days….."without self-control"; greek [akrates]- powerless, inclined to excess
    2 Timothy 3:3


    • Monica says:

      LOL well it's a good thing you obviously have self-control, huh, Sharon? Congratulations and good luck in your eternity.


  19. Cneder says:

    It's just a show. That's it. Church is nothing but a show. Some seductive dancing is no different than the stuff that happens on stage.


  20. Monica says:

    I took a minute and debated even responding to you at all, b/c you,like your little friends on here,made me laugh out loud. First of all, no need for names. I can call you things, but it won't make them true and it won't make my opinion any closer to yours. Second of all, SHAME ON YOU. Man…you guys are in for a rude awakening when you meet Jesus and see that He is everything you thought He wasn't and nothing you thought He was. Love, kindness….wrath…anger…you know nothing. Just wait.


    • Jared says:

      Monica, they don't know us, and they are not really listening to us. I just want you to know, I went to Bible College and got my degree in Biblical Studies. There are those of us out there who really do care about what matters. You're not alone, and the Christians you are looking for do exist. We have honest discussions, and we have accept people who are different than us, and we do our best to love people the best we can, often failing, but always optimistically working toward a better future, trying to partner with God in seeing His kingdom come.

      Don't lose heart. Unfortunately, many of these types of Christians don't go to these kinds of sites, because they are already fed up with the bad exegesis and Pharasaic attitude. If you would like, I can link you to the theological discussion page my friends and I have where we try to have more open, honest, and humble discussions on these kinds of things. Let me know. I am glad that I was not the only one trying to champion the Truth here.


  21. Jared says:


    Please tell me, to what sins of mine are you referring?


  22. Jared says:

    Dear Aris,
    If you have read other comments by Monica and I, you would be aware that both of us have studied the Bible at a depth most of the church never will. I know that means little to most people, but we really have approached the Bible with the same respect or devotion the rest of the church has, and I would argue, we actually gave it more devotion. We decided to give up our time and money in order to devote our lives to the study of the Word. We truly do want His rule and reign. However, I would argue that perhaps we understand what that means more than you.

    In fact, I have spent a good deal of time studying Ephesians, and it does not support your claims. Yes, we are supposed to be different than the world, but in the ways that matter. Dancing is hardly that important in light of the more important issues, like worshipping God in our love to others. I would point you to the Old Testament, where God did not create a country that was completely different from the surrounding countries. Yes, they were to be holy (which does not mean pure, but separate and distinct), but they also had festivals like the surrounding nations. And they lived their lives based on books written in the style of Babylonian literature, and Egyptian literature. So, I would argue that God does not ask us to turn our back on culture, rather He wants to redeem it.

    So, again, is this something legitimately destructive? It seems that it really depends on the hearts of the individuals. But even if it is not, it is not something that is so important that it is a sign of depravity.

    Perhaps there are specific portions of Ephesians you wish to discuss. If not, I can go through my study of the entire book with you, if that would help you understand why I believe it does not support your conclusions.


  23. Jared says:

    Dear Aris,
    The book of John is also the book most inundated with the love of Christ. Everything about that book shows how much Jesus loved those who were both saved and depraved (though we cannot really say they were saved until after the death of Jesus, at least not in the way we use the term now). I don't see that same love in your words. Perhaps, if you started treating us like brothers and sisters, and not some ambiguous "other person" we could discuss this in a more fruitful manner.


  24. Jared says:

    LJ, Barna is not well respected by sociologists because the studies who does are largely manipulated. As a fellow seeker of truth, I would warn against using his studies to support conclusions. I used to use Barna as well before I discovered through my Christian Ethics professor the manipulative nature of his studies.

    And I, like Monica, completely agree with that list. Thank you for providing it. 🙂 And thank you for your response.


  25. Jared says:

    And btw, I have had a passport for a little over ten years, and I do sponsor a child. It is hardly enough, I realize that. I have recently felt very convicted that I spend too much time in my Christian community and not enough time helping those in need. I am currently searching for an organization to get involved with where I can volunteer my time. If anyone has any suggestions, I would gladly take them.

    All that to say, I am not perfect. Nor do I claim to be, but I am also in no hurry to pick up the stone and cast it at these individuals with whom I am completely unacquainted. I hope one day to be able to give more finances to helping the hurting, but my current situation makes giving more than $45 a month difficult. I am still trying to afford medical insurance. (I hope to be able to do so soon. Y'all can be praying for me, if you would like.)


  26. Jared says:

    Can I tell you how much I appreciated this response? I agree that we should be careful not to be vulgar, but such a thing is hard to judge, and it is so easy to judge things in light of our personal feelings rather than in light of Scripture and empathy. We do not know these people, so it is difficult to judge their heart. Perhaps we should be more careful about not doing things that are commonly interpreted as lewd. However, each individual is on a different journey, and the Holy Spirit will bring conviction when He deems it time.

    All that to say, thank you for your tactful and humble response.


  27. J says:

    Jared and Monica everyone is entitled to there opinions. God will judge us all when we get to heaven.
    I can't wait to get to heaven to ask God his opinions on things we have done down here.


    • Monica says:

      I'll be too busy worshipping and praising Him, too full of joy and thanksgiving to ask questions. I'll be DONE asking questions by then. 🙂


  28. Darrel says:

    You know your sins. God knows your sins. Attempting to justify yourself to God by your good works, by giving time and money, or having the best of intentions is not enough to gain eternal salvation. Feeling sympathy for some one else in a third world country does not gain for your soul the rest from the burden of sin that you carry. Only Jesus Christ is able to forgive your sins, only He can take away the load of sin that you seek relief from. All the Bible studies and degrees will not gain for you entrance into the heaven you desire. Only Jesus Christ can deliver you from the power of the sins that now hold your heart. Christ is mighty to forgive. Christ is mighty to save. Call upon Him while He is near, your sins will be forgiven and you will be made as white as snow.


    • Jared says:

      I would appreciate you not speak about how depraved I am when you do not know me. God does know my sins, and I know most of them, but you do not. You keep putting yourself above me, calling yourself holy than I am. I am not trying to gain salvation by my actions, I am simply trying to answer God's call to take care of the poor and the forgotten. I am not trying to gain salvation through works, and you are ignoring the problem I brought up by deflecting the argument toward a simply matter of sola fidelis. Answering God's call to take care of the hurting is completely different than earning salvation through works. One is obedience, the other is vanity.

      And I would also appreciate that you do not disregard my education. The reason I went to Bible College in the first place was in answer to God's call to leave my family and devote myself to studying His Word. Your disdain for my education is disdain for the call of God on my life. It is one of the most hurtful things I face, and I face it every day from people in the church who think that I am prideful, or that they just do not like that I have studied the Bible on more than a devotional level. I am not sure from where the disdain originates, but I have been as diligent as I possibly could have been in my answer to God's call. I do not have disdain for God's call on your life. Why do you have disdain for mine?


    • Monica says:

      Yes Jared, repent, REPENT!!! lol


  29. Amy says:

    "Blasphemy" occurs in Scripture 12 times. It means to slander one's name. To behave this way in a worship service or as a professing Christian would definitely slander the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. No lol about it.


    • Monica says:

      Explain to me how dancing is slandering the name of Jesus Christ….that's like saying riding bikes is slandering….ludicrous.


  30. Amy says:

    Jesus said to "judge righteously" and we are told by Paul to judge each other within the church, this is accountability, so that we will not "fall from grace" (Hebrews) and be drawn away by the deceitfulness of sin, which the Savior we profess died for. Matthew 7 on not judging is often quoted by non-believers who want to continue in their sin and remain "condemned already" (John 3:18) This passage is about hypocritical judging. A simple concordance helps with definitions, the Bible defines it's own words when they are read in context everywhere the word appears.

    This of course only applies to people who believe the Bible is God's word, and that that Word "became flesh and dwelt among us" so that He could be the propitiation for our sin.


  31. Amy says:

    Jesus said, "be holy as I am holy." If holy doesn't mean "pure" then I guess Jesus wasn't pure. This is what happens when Scripture is not read as God's word but as in intellectual pursuit. Why do you think the Hebrews were to destroy all the nations (which they didn't do) when they entered the promised land? Because God wanted a holy people (the only monotheistic one-as an example to the world) from which to bring the Son of God.

    Discernment: Try Malachi 3:18 Monica and Jared, you are reading discernment in action in these comments. Aris was wondering if you were saved because that is how you receive the Holy Spirit, and HE is the one who will "guide you into all truth." Without Him, the word is "foolishness" to you, and your interpretations reflect that. The pharisees were learned men. They knew the Scriptures. So did Peter, a fisherman. The difference is the fisherman had the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. After your initial offense of this post, "examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith." Your pride and arrogance may be keeping you from a beautiful eternity.


  32. Amy says:

    If we needed Greek and Hebrew, God would have us born speaking it. We have His word in the English language. How big is your God that He can't do that? "For the word of God IS quick and powerful" meaning it is RIGHT NOW, not just when it came in the original languages.

    The book of John IS about love. It's also about judgment. Don't stop at John 3:16. 3:18 is where WE need to show our love, by caring enough to show people that they are sinners ("The law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ") in need of a savior. We cannot do that if we canvas all behavior with "God loves them." They are on their way to hell without believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, because the "wrath of God is upon them" (Romans). THAT is the second subject of the book of John, see how many times "believe on" Jesus Christ is in there.


    • Jared says:

      I am going to assume this is a troll (a joke in order to provoke an argument), because that is an entirely illogical statement regarding Hebrew and Greek that no one could actually believe. Therefore, I will disregard "Amy" as a serious contributor in this discussion.


    • David says:


      Not sure if you'll read this, but I hope you find these words insightful. We are most certainly incredibly blessed to have the Bible translated into our language. However, this was only made possible through the hard work and dedication of men and woman who had an intimate understanding and knowledge of Bible's orignal languages, Biblical Hebrew, Koine Greek and Aramaic. As scholars continue to study these languages in their historical context, they continuously discover new and insightful things about those languages that directly affect the way we translate the Bible into english. Furthermore, having an intimate knowledge of the languages used by the original authors of the Bible enables us to gain clearer understanding of the Biblical passages that are hard to translate into English, while retaining the orignal meaning and idea of the text.

      Certainly the majority of people need not study/have knowledge of these original languages to engage fruitful study of the Bible. However we cannot say that we (the collective body of Christ) do not need to know them. If the many scholars before us hadn't dedicated much of their time to study the original languages, and translating the Scriptures into English, you would be looking at pages and pages of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek wishing you knew what the words meant.

      Lastly, being someone who does have an intimate knowledge and understanding of Biblical Hebrew and Koine Greek, I work hard to study the Scriptures in their original languages so that I can be the best teacher possible. God could have dropped a perfect English translation from the sky for English speakers, yet He didn't. He chose to make His word known through the abilities of many translators. I think perhaps it brings many people together in the common goal of preserving the words of God. In doing so, God did something far greater for the Christian community having us come together despite language barriers, than simply having us born speaking it for ourselves.


  33. Darrel says:

    Would you have God pass by your sins because of all the wonderful things you have done in His Name?
    Do you expect Him to excuse your sin because you feel there is a "call" upon your life?
    When a man calls good to be evil, and evil to be good, do you expect God to turn away as if it did not happen?
    Will God allow you or anyone to mock Him and for Him to turn a blind eye?
    What shall a man give in exchange for his soul?


    • Jared says:

      Do you not see how pointless your points are? If one of your friends went to India as a missionary and served in an orphanage for four years, would you say this same stuff to them when they came back? Would you invalidate the call of God on their life simply because they sin?

      I have never denied that I sin. You sin too. We all sin. But Paul never told us to live in fear of our sin, for fear is not of God. We are instead supposed to be obedient to God, and allow the Holy Spirit to transform us as we seek Him and function as part of the body of Christ (Rom 12). And my calling does not purge of my sin. I also never made that claim. These are all words you are putting in my mouth (or rather, words you are typing on my keyboard).

      However, the problem is not whether or not I sin, since that is completely irrelevant to this whole discussion. The point of this discussion is not whether I sin but whether the Harlem Shake is a sin, or rather, that doing the Harlem Shake is a sin. However, instead of really discussing the issue, you have attacked me as a person and the call of God on my life. You have told me that my education was pointless, when the whole reason I spent four years of my life and went $30,000 in debt was in answer to the call of God. But you have told me that means nothing, that I know no more about the Bible than any others, and that my obedience was pointless and has made no difference on the world (which ironically is caused by the fact that people do not believe I have anything to say). Would you tell a pastor the same thing? Would you tell a missionary the same thing? Would you have told Abraham the same thing? That he never should have left Ur, because it didn't save him, even though it was apparently a sign of his faith, according to Paul. Your telling me that my Bible education is pointless, and ignoring anything I have to say, is kind of like going to a doctor's office and not listening to him because he is only 26–he obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.

      You finally seem to be touching on the issue of the Harlem Shake toward the end of your message. Is it good or evil? And if it is evil, am I calling it good? Do I expect God to turn away as if it did not happen? Would God allow others to mock Him and turn a blind eye?

      Then the last question is irrelevant, but I will respond to the others, knowing that you probably will not truly respond to any of my details.

      Is it good or evil? This is a good question, but there is another option. Perhaps it is neither. Perhaps it is just amoral. It might be evil, and we can even work from that assumption, though I am not sure it is. It seems that some people in these videos have taken it too far, and God can deal with them individually, but most people are having innocent fun, from my perspective.

      Am I calling what is evil good? If we are working from the assumption that it is evil, then this answer is still no. I never called it good, I just said it wasn't evil and definitely was not demon worship. For the first, it is debatable. For the second, I see very little evidence that it is demon worship, since we have already established that worship is not involuntary.

      Do I expect God to turn away from this evil act? I don't expect either response from God. God is sovereign and can do as He wants. I don't pretend to be able to predict God's actions. Do you expect Him to?

      Will God allow others to mock Him? Again, I don't know. He is sovereign. He has allowed people to mock Him before. He definitely did on the cross. Jesus had this tendency of humbling Himself and giving up His status as God.

      I am going to go back to the first question you asked me now. Would I have God pass by my sins because of all the wonderful things I have done in His name? No. I would not. He passed by my sins not because of what I have done but because of what He has done. And I am feel so undeserving of that grace. Wouldn't it be great if we really could do something to feel worthy of this grace? Wouldn't it be great if we could refrain from certain actions so that we would feel worthy of God's unlimited, incomparable grace? I fear that if we did, though, we would have this unfortunate tendency of criticizing others for not living up to that same standard. And we would feel superior to others because we live more righteous than they do.

      And no, I don't expect Him to excuse my sin because there is a call on my life. But I do think that having a "call" on my life is evidence that God has already excused my sin, washed it with His blood, though I was completely undeserving.


      • Monica says:

        Jared,Darrel has no limits in his hatred. He directed it at me too, a pastor's wife. A former pastor's wife, I mean. Which is ludicrous and sadly not surprising to me at this time in my walk 😦


  34. Rose Vosburgh says:

    Shoe was completely on the other foot, Monica. You were the one calling names here… 'these beautiful Pharisee friends of ours'. That sounds pretty judgmental to me…and prompted my response to you. If we are truly in Christ, we can have a conversation in a respectful way without throwing around the P word everytime someone (of a bit more conservative persuasion) disagrees with us. I was simply trying to get you to think a little differently…give you another perspective on this issue. No where did I judge you or call you a name.

    Bowing out is very simple. I have done it many times and am doing it right now. Here is how it is done: This will be my last post to this topic. Have a great day.


    • Monica says:

      You are right, I did start the name calling. I'm sorry for that. No need to condescend me. As for the conservative whatever you said…I was that once…my husband and I served in full time ministry where he was lead pastor of a Southern Baptist church for 8 years. Now we don't even go to church. I can't get him to. And it's heartbreaking and scary and we're so angry. What confuses me in church and what this topic has precipitated…why are people sohateful? Jared and I have simply defended the dancing, nothing else until we were completely attacked and bullied.I don't understand why christians wouldn't want to bring back others who have fallen and are broken instead of bruise them further. It confirms my thoughts on the church. and why we left. and will stay gone.


      • Amy Spreeman says:

        Monica, stepping outside of this conversation for a moment, I am curious about your story. You were a pastor's wife and your husband served as a lead pastor. It must have been devastating to leave your church family. Would you mind me asking what happened? It seems like I'm hearing about a lot of out-of-church Christians these days, and I myself am in the wilderness in that respect. I know for so many it's because of painful events. Glad you are here.


      • Monica says:

        Thanks Amy. I would love to share that story with you, but I dont' feel like this is a safe place to say the least. The people that have communicated with me are just like the ones who pushed us out of church.


  35. Mary says:

    All I can say is God bless us everyone. Please help us see the "Light" dear God. Help us discern Your work from the world. In Jesus' name, Amen. *+* ❤


  36. Mary says:

    I may not be where I need to be, but I thank God that I'm not where I used to be. I know I am NOT perfect and I know that I'm still a work in progress; God is stilling work on me. He knows my heart. God bless *+* ♥


    • Jared says:

      Amen. And may we love others in their brokenness as God loved us in ours. 🙂 Thank you for your words, Mary. They were honey over a soul that was being scorched by the harsh words of others. I appreciate your kindness.


  37. Jared says:

    If we look at holiness in the contexts where it is used, and if we look at it in terms of what we understand of the language, what it is specifically referring to is distinction and separateness. God is, undeniably, distinct from humanity and separate. Likewise, we are to be distinct and separate.

    We are ALSO called to be pure, but we must look to other passages to be support that claim. The beatitudes support that as well as the Levitical laws, which are the specific ways in which Israel is to be pure. Likewise, part of God's distinction is His purity, so we can indirectly say that in being holy, we are called to be pure. But we would be reading into the BIble our own understanding of things if we assume holiness=purity. That would be us speaking to the Bible rather than us allowing the Bible to speak to us on its terms.

    If you had been reading my comments, you would know that my studying of the Scriptures is not just from an intellectual pursuit. It was out of an answer to God's call on my life, with which I have been trying to be as diligent as possible. Part of that diligence is doing everything I can to understand the Bible, so that I won't misinterpret it.

    And Amy, I think that perhaps I could also say that I am practicing discernment in my responses to your comments and in responding to this article in general. I saw the article misinterpreting the churches that did these dances and the quotes from different pastors and administrators. I construe that as lying, and I also do not discern these dances as being evil, at least not to the extent with which this article portrays it.

    What concerns me more is that the general consensus is that if you study the Word in college, if you prove all diligence to that particular call of God, then people automatically assume that it is merely an "intellectual pursuit." Most of the Bible scholars I know, and my friends who have gone through Bible College with me, have a deep love for God and a serious relationship with Him. Why is it that we who have given ourselves to this call, who have studied the Word with all diligence, are the ones who have least credence in these forums? You do not see my fruit, so you cannot judge me by that. I have not spoken with hatred, so you cannot judge me based on that. Why the distrust? Why have I been shut out so entirely? Why do most of the people in this forum jump to the conclusion that I am not a Christian and that I have lived my life for myself and not for God? Why am I the one who is not devoted to God? Why am I the one who doesn't understand the Word? Why am I the one who does not have discernment? Why is it that the ones who have not studied the Word at Bible College are the ones who understand the Bible? Do you also understand anatomy more than a doctor? If my studies were only an intellectual pursuit, then I can see where you are coming from, but I have been a worship leader and served in churches for over ten years, and the pastors in my life would not say that I have done my studying as purely an intellectual pursuit. They also would testify to my fruit. And these are not just my pastors but denominational leaders with whom I have relationship. So, why has everyone jumped to these conclusions about my character? Why have I been judged this way by people who do not even know me when those who do have a completely different point of view?

    Is it simply because I don't agree or present a view different than your own?


  38. Mr Davis says:

    Darrel, If by judgement you mean a handing of one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh I have to agree 1 Corinthians 5:3-13. But that is not the judgement Peter is talking about in 1 Peter 4 where the faithful are tested for purification that comes by persecution leading to bloodshed for our testimony of Christ.


  39. Mr Davis says:

    There is alot of telling things brought up here. Alot of opinion, self justification, and yes even self righteousness.

    Look at this: if we are laying aside God's word to do what we want we are committing mutiny against the most High God. Yes mutiny and treachery, we are proclaiming my way is better. I know better than the most High and I will not yield nor bend the knee in submission to you. I supplant you as king and I myself claim that title for I will do my will.

    We are doing this against God almighty maker of heaven and earth and all that is in them even you and I. God alone is Good for He is Holy, Just, Righteous, Infinite, Eternal the only High God. Somebody stated earlier we all sin Yes all have rebelled against this God and we continue in our hatred in as much as we disobey His word.

    Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face. Deuteronomy 7:9-10

    This is why we need God to save us from ourselves and our selfwill, working in us Godly sorrow giving us this knowledge of who we have sinned against and hating ourselves for it. We CRY WHAT HAVE I DONE, WHAT HAVE I DONE as we behold Christ Jesus bearing my sins your sins the sins of the world in His body and paying the due penalty in Himself in His flesh for our sins, pouring out His blood on the cross, Dying in our place. And making an end to the handwritting of ordinances that was against us in the death of that flesh. He endured that death in obedience to the Father and that same death purged He Himself of our Sins.

    Why do we want to treat God judgement of sin in Christ as nothing Hebrews 10:29. We should hate every form of excess, every form of Lust (Coveting, Greed, Power, every form of lewdness in which is the pride fo life)

    John 15 Jesus proclaims that a disciple is one who abides in God's commands. If one does not He will be gathered up and cast into the fire.

    So how must we be
    1 We then, as workers together with Him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

    3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed :

    4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, 5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; 6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,

    7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, 8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; 9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; 10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things. 2 corinthians 6:1-10

    In case we are wondering if we should not bring the culture into the body of Christ there is even a more direct command in 2 Corinthians and yet it is the most ignored for all institutions it seems have brought the culture in and have allowed it to shape them.

    And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 2 Corinthians 6:15-18

    Brothers and Sisters we are called to Come Out! We are called to Repent! we are called to believe in the One True Righteousness of God revealed from Heaven Christ Jesus who is the Lord almighty and obey Him and all of His counsel. We Need the Holy Spirit and I fear it is because we do not that we continue to follow after vain men?

    Hebrews 10:16-27 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say , his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised 😉 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching . 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    Hebrews 10:38-39 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back , my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

    Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went . 23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, Ezekiel 36:22-24

    We need Him to save us but He doesn't do it because you are wonderful but because He is working in you to bring Glory to His name

    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean : from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Ezekiel 36:25-27

    With a resulting repentance if we do not hate sin are we really His?

    31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. 32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, Ezekiel 36:31-32


  40. John says:

    I think the Harlem Shake is a very dumb dance if you wanna call it a dance. What is missing is that it seems the conservative bunch in the church think that the people doing it are doing it in the Name of God. Most of these videos are being done by youth groups and not the main congregation. I SERIOUSLY doubt that any of these groups will tell you this is God. They are just trying to have fun and get in the craze of the dance. IT is just as silly as Gangnum Style dance. I get a kick out how people are getting their panties in a wade over this.

    Did any youth pastor says this is God's Spirit moving??


    • Rose Vosburgh says:

      "Most of these videos are being done by youth groups and not the main congregation. I SERIOUSLY doubt that any of these groups will tell you this is God. They are just trying to have fun and get in the craze of the dance."

      I am sorry to differ with you, John, but I did a search on You Tube and I am finding it is not just youth groups. Maybe it did start there, but it is spreading into actual church services. One church in one of the video, they even calls it worship to the Lord with worship captions on the video. Do a search. You can find it. Sadly, it is spreading to the church overseas too. It is one thing for young people to be doing this as a lark in one of their meetings or in a dorm room, but to bring it into the church sanctuary and perform it during a service, even if it is just mid-week or Sunday evening…it has no place…none. And I just can't see how anyone can defend that. I find it very disturbing.

      Something to give you a different perspective concerning our youth:

      Background behind Paul Washer's Shocking Message to Youth and what it was that prompted him to preach it:

      Paul Washer's Shocking Youth Message:


  41. David says:

    After reading through the responses to this article, I am surprised at the level of sometimes anti-intellectual engagement in some of these article responses, especially where blatant fallacious ad-hominem arguments are given. Furthermore it appears that many responders did not even bother to do any research into the matter, let alone what this modern Harlem Shake spin-off comes from.

    To give a brief history of the Harlem Shake; it was first done by a man named Al B from Harlem, New York. The original Harlem Shake was a set of movements that were restricted to the upper body and arms. In Al B’s words regarding the inspiration for the movements, “…from the mummies, in the tombs. That's what the mummies used to do. They was all wrapped up and taped up. So they couldn't really move, all they could do was shake” (Original Article link:…. As can be clearly understood from the inventor of the dance move, it is simply inspired from what one would imagine a mummy doing if they were trying to get out of their wrappings. This is certainly different than what is trying to be portrayed from the final video in this article entitled “The Egyptian Shake.” According to “The Egyptian Shake” video, the narrator seems to think the dance finds its roots from some ancient Egyptian pagan ritual. There is zero evidence to support this claim. Rather, the inspiration for the dance move is found in an imaginative recreation of what someone would do if they were wrapped up in cloth, much like a mummy. An excellent example may be found by this hip-hop dance instructor on how to properly do the Harlem Shake:

    As can be seen by the plethora of Harlem Shake meme recreations on, the original dance move is rarely, if ever, used within these ‘Shake’ videos. It seems more appropriate to define it as a group of individuals attempting to act as goofy as possible for the allotted duration of the Baauer Harlem Shake song. As can be seen within some of the Christian School/Church recreations of this Internet phenomenon, they too are merely acting as goofy as possible, shaking about, and being silly. Granted, it is likely that some within the Christian community will take it too far and indeed step beyond the line of being goofy and into the territory of inappropriate in their gestures. In such cases there should certainly be gentle guidance towards being more responsible. Yet, this does not give cause to denounce recreating what is called the Harlem Shake for those who are Christians. At its core, the Harlem Shake meme is an Internet phenomenon in which groups of individuals try to be as goofy as possible during the song. It is not, however, a reincarnated Egyptian pagan deity worship dance. Rather, an attempt at having fun, and being a little goofy while one is at it.

    In trying to respond to things like the Harlem Shake as it pertains to the Christian community, it is imperative to approach these matters with more understanding. This way, we come to a more holistic understanding of the issue before denouncing anything, or anyone. While those who take the dance and goofiness too far (i.e. becoming blatantly sexual in conduct), the Harlem Shake in itself and participating in it is not bad, nor condemnable.


    • Monica says:

      yaaaaaaaaaaaaawn…oh, i'm sorry, did you have something relevant to say?


      • David says:

        I first want to state that I am not the same 'David' as the one who commented "This is blasphemy!…" on March 13, 2013 at 12:16 am.

        But I am the same David to which you have responded to here. I just want to make that very clear.

        Secondly, I'm sorry you have failed to see the relevancy of my article response. However, I think that if you re-read the article, watch the video posted in association with it, and then re-read my article response, the relevancy of my post will become more clear to you.


  42. bob says:

    the Bible saysd that we are to abstain from all appearance of evil, and that we are to be in the world but not of the world. if we are not bearing fruit for the kingdom we are luke warm and not fit for the kingdom of God


    • Monica says:

      Oh Bob, you just took a myriad of scriptures and threw them all together to support your claim, also taking them out of context. Study the Bible, man, then use it as a sword. Not the other way around.


  43. Rose Vosburgh says:

    Monica, Thank you for admitting and apologizing for the P word remark. I apologize for the condescending tone of my post to you. I think you and I have something in common…being hurt by fellow Christians and having to leave a church under heartbreaking circumstances. Sounds like you had to leave because of legalism and so that has affected how you think and feel on these issues. I had to leave my church of 28 years because of the purpose driven seeker friendly movement that invaded my church. And that has surely affected my thinking.There wasn't room for any discussion when things started to change in my old church. We were just told, if we couldn't get with the new plan, we should leave. We weren't wanted there anymore. It was devastating to leave a church where I had raised my kids and had served in every area of children's ministry over the years. I had no place to go. It was a lonely time. I did eventually find another church… chosing a more conversative Baptist church, shying away from those with contemporary services in fear of being hurt again. Though the wounds have healed yet there is always that sore spot which does affect me still today.

    I guess what we are encountering here in the discussion of this issue is the age old conflict between the two extremes of antinomianism and legalism that has gone on in the church for centuries. We are still arguing between the two today and we can be prejudiced in our thinking depending on our experience with either of these two extremes. I try hard not to fall into the legalism trap, but I probably can come across that way to some because of my passion now against antinomianism. You are probably the same way in your passion against legalism.

    I am glad you shared your experience. I understand you better now and I hope you understand me better as well. I truly hope and pray you and your husband will heal and find a good church home soon. I will probably still disagree with you, Monica, but I understand your situation better now,,,, I have been there too..

    Again, my apologies for the condescending tone.


  44. Nathan says:

    Thought you might want to know. Didn't miss a day of church until I had a choice in the matter at the age of 18. It is simple, ancient thinking like this article that makes me despise religion. You want US, YOUR FUTURE, to embrace your ancient thinking, but what you don't realise is you are pushing us away from everything you believe in because you are so simple minded.

    With my upbringing I have to question myself, and wonder if it "Satan" who controls the people who write this CRAP. Pushed even farther<<<<<<<<


    • Jimmy Stidham says:

      My friend it sounds like you had religion not a relationship for 18 years. Sounds like you have had a bad experience with religion. There are two different thing religion is man made, relationship is when you fall in love with Christ and realize his purpose and your purpose on this earth.


      • Monica says:

        Jimmy, RELIGION is what these lunatics on here are yelling at us,trying to persuade us to their "side" of things. Not grace, truth, and love. I've tried conveying that, tried "crying out" to them that some of us on here have lost our way. If they believe what they say they believe…how can they treat us with such disdain yet not judge their own hearts and actions? They do nothing but push us farther away from their "truth".


      • Kuni says:

        Sorry buddy but that is still religion , you clearly don't even understand what religion means, you have a clearly defined dogma about the orgins of the universe,and divinity that is clearly religion


    • Monica says:

      Hey yeah,d ude, you're preaching to the choir. THESE people are the reason my husband left the ministry as a pastor. They don't get it, even now, with someone like me around telling them. It is sad (kind of ) and scary, and I want no part of any of it.


  45. Nathan says:

    Nathan 1:1

    For he who is so simple minded to confuse simple fun with the devil shall inherit himself and no friends.


    • vince barnett says:

      Professing themselves to be wise , they became fools………………


    • Mama says:

      That's the problem, Nathan. We tend to make our rules as we go along. Our rules aren't so healthy. I did too – I left the church when I was no longer required to go. My problem was that I was raised in a church that said you need to be good if you want to go to Heaven. It wasn't until I was older that I learned the truth. That Jesus died and shed blood as a gift. A gift that I couldn't buy (gifts are free, right?). When I learned there was nothing I could do to get to Heaven – that in fact, I will always be a sinner – and Jesus wanted me in Heaven and so He died a grotesque death as a criminal (it was supposed to be me on that cross) — it was then that I understood. That blood took away my sin once and for all. So simple – yet so hard to grasp! After awhile, I began to read the Word and think about it. Then I understood why all these "crazy Christians" said what they do. Some of them really LOVE Jesus. They don't want to do the things that put Him at that Cross to begin with. It is something that only happens when you start to understand. The Word tells us that the world will only think we are crazy if we don't do what everyone else is doing. I can't expect you to understand that. But I hope that someday you come to Him yourself and try to understand the scriptures yourself. Then, I can promise you, that you will be disgusted with the things the "world" is doing and you will understand. God bless your heart.


    • Noreen says:

      Nathan, you are seeking counsel from the ungodly, i.e., yourself.


  46. David Cox says:

    I find this fad not only disturbing, but it's really ver sad. Because the unbelievers put there see this sort of thing and say "why be a Christian they're just like me?" In my opinion the church is on the very fine edge of complete and total Apostasy. What happened to teach the precious word of God?? Teaching about sin? And those who think they're saved, but in reality are they are participating in a lie. If this is what the church in this day and age is all about I'm not surprised that all Christians are liars and hypocrites. I'm deeply saddened by what I just saw and read


  47. Sharon W. says:

    In Romans 12:2, we're instructed NOT TO CONFORM TO THIS WORLD, [not fashion yourselves to the age]…which includes our thinking & our conduct.

    In Ephesians 5:1 we're instructed to "IMITATE GOD"
    In1 Corinthians 11:1, Paul instructs us to be followers/imitators of him as he also is of CHRIST….to list just a few.

    For those who want to use "the youth" argument; I'll grant you that. But the example being set goes beyond just the youth- there are adults partaking.
    My initial comment, the first one at top of comments….I stated, "church of Laodicea anyone?" (Revelation 3:14-22)… Laodicea-[lao-dikaomai]…translation, "people's rights" or "PEOPLE'S OPINIONS".

    James 4:4…Those who wish to be a "friend of this world makes himself an enemy of God".


    • Rose Vosburgh says:

      Yes, it is going beyond youth with adults partaking…and in some of the videos I viewed, even the pastors.

      Thank you for the translation on Laodicea. We certainly are seeing that in the comments to this topic. God's Word is our final authority and it says all is to be done in an orderly fashion in the church with the edification of God as our primary goal…not edifying ourselves. The church service is for worship of God…not a place for goofiness, sillyness, and in some of the videos, blatant sensuality


      • Sharon W. says:

        Stand firm, Rejoice, Pray always & smile 🙂 [inside, outside or both].
        In these days, it's a real battlefield.


      • Monica says:

        Rose, don't get it twisted what you saw in these videos. STOP judging other's hearts. It is downright shocking to me how Pharisaical you all sound.I feel so sad for you when judgment day comes, truly.


      • Rose Vosburgh says:

        There you go, Monica, using the P word again, even after I tried to touch common ground with you and reach out to you in love in my above post. (Was the 'yaaa..wn' comment meant for me or for David? I thought it couldn't be for David since he seems to agree with you.)

        How can you judge my heart and my salvation? Isn't that what you are accusing me of…judging others? And how did I 'get it twisted' what I saw in those videos? It’s just what I saw and it was happening, not in a dorm room or a youth group meeting. It was happening in the sanctuary of a Christian church. According the dictionary, sanctuary means the holiest part of a sacred place. Do we bring something worldly, or even something frivolous, into the sacred place where we meet with God?

        You feel sad for me when judgment day comes. So, according to your standards, I am not a Christian because I judge….judge this behavior to be degrading and unfitting for a Christian in a worship service. We are talking about the behavior here. Of course only God know these people's hearts and the true condition of their souls.. But, we can tell much by the fruit of a person's life. That fruit is not only good works of helping the poor, etc. It is also a proper attitude of reverence and fear of a Holy God. We have an obligation to love others, but our first obligation is to love God and to give Him the kind of worship He desires and demands. This 'dance' is demeaning to both to God and the people who are doing it. Bringing it into the sanctuary crosses the line and I don't know how you can argue it doesn't.

        1 Peter 1:14 -19:

        As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.

        "You shall be holy, for I am holy." Tell me how performing the Harlem Shake in the church sanctuary is in keeping with these verses of scripture. It seems we just can't judge anything today. All judging is bad… pharisaical. But scripture tells us we are to judge and discern what is of God and what is not. What we are not to do is judge others hypocritically…trying to get the speck out of someone else's eye while we have a boulder in our own. But Luke 6: 42 does not say we can never judge others or their behavior. It says, 'first cast the beam out of your own eye, and THEN shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye." If you have a beam, remove it and then you can and must judge and discern what is right according to what the Word of God says. Then we can contend for the faith and can help others, who could be misled, to get back on the right track.

        If I have a beam in my eye, Monica, show me what it is. I never once judged these people's heart. It is the behavior which I am judging in accord with what the Word of God says. They may be very sincere in their faith, but being sincere does not make the behavior right….not one bit.

        I generally find people on here are pretty easy to talk with. But as soon as rancor, name calling ('lunatic') or accusations start flying, real communication goes out the window. You accuse people of 'screaming'. Since there is no sound, how do you know? 🙂 Also you judged another person for spending time on his computer posting to this topic…when, for all you know, he may have spent his morning in devout prayer. Who is judging here, Monica? We can dislike opinions and do so in a respectful way, in Christian love, while still caring about the person. You are hurt. I understand that…been there. But we move on in the Lord to healing or the bitterness eats our souls. I admit, I haven’t read every post, so perhaps some were out of line in their response to you…as I was myself in one post. But don’t let the behavior of a few sour you on the rest who are just trying to express their opinions.


      • Monica says:

        I did not judge your heart OR your salvation. I said, and I quote "how pharisaical you all SOUND…." I said nothing about your heart,nothing about your salvation. now please, people, back off. I apologize if my defenses are offensive to you, but I'm not gonna just sit quietly while people say those types of things. I will always respond. I do, however, have a life to continue, so pleeeeeeease just let it go. Shake in Harlem if ya want, condemn people to hell if ya want, spend your time arguing and throwing scripture verses around for anything but peace. I am tired of fighting you all and have a life to live.


  48. Jimmy Stidham says:



  49. believer says:

    You talk about living by God's law??? That is why he sent his Son Jesus to die for us and to be covered in his grace and to live in Grace. Jesus took it all away…sin and everything, once we believe that, it is an everlasting change. I don't know about you but I don't live by the "law" but by Grace. If you live by the law you shall be judged by the law. I am redeemed…he took it all away.


    • Sharon W. says:

      Yes, Grace & Truth came by Jesus Christ [John 1:17]
      And yes, because of Christ Jesus the Law of the Spirit of Life has set us free.
      [Romans 8:2]

      Taking into consideration the "whole counsel of God" [Acts 20:27],
      It says in [Romans 6:15] are we to continue to sin because we are under grace,
      "by no means".
      [Romans 6:1,2]…do we go on sinning that grace may abound? "by no means!"

      Salvation is not just a one time act of Grace bestowed through faith…that's just the beginning.
      It's a lifetime walk of faith [2Corinthians 5:7], being sanctified/purified in His Truth & Grace [John 17:17]
      Some people keep walking,
      some stand still,
      some dig in their heels,
      some do all the above
      & some go backwards
      But God's desire is that we spiritually grow & mature in His Grace


  50. David says:

    This is blashamy! The people who call this fun are confused. There is nothing holy about this "dance". Why mix the Holy with worldy? Didnt Jesus calls us to seperate from the world?

    2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
    2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
    2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
    2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

    1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
    1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
    1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.


    • Monica says:

      It's a good thing you obviously don't love things of the world as you sit on your worldly computer wasting your wordly time hating people who are even more worldly then you are. Isnt' it, David?


  51. Monica says:

    OH my gosh, people. I am not only withdrawing from this "fight" that is going in mean circles, I am unsubscribing from this page. It is nothing but religion and rules, which I don't have time for as life is short and the harvest is ripe. Enjoy each other and be sweet 🙂


  52. J says:

    I don't think this was going in a mean circle. It's good we can share God's word with each other.



    Harlem Shake Brings Spirit Of Antichrist To America’s Christian Churches!

    There are several religious groups and organizations doing the “Harlem Shake:”
    Saddleback High School Ministry
    Liberty University
    Destiny World Outreach Center
    Vineyards Student Harlem Shake
    City Church Downtown
    Celebration Church Jacksonville FL

    “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” 2 Timothy 4:3,4


  54. J says:

    Thanks for the list of churches doing the Harlem Shake.


  55. Shafawn says:

    If it's harmless dancing and fun I don't see the big deal. Church is inside us every day.. we are the temple of God. Christ lives inside of us. Being in a particular building doesn't make anything we do more or less a sin.

    If the students were dancing 'seductively' then we have a problem but not because of what building they were in.

    God can see you at church, at home, at the grocery..

    Everything we do should be done for the glory of God.

    Having said that I don't think God is against us having fun, dancing, jumping around.. expending energy, laughing, shouting, singing (even non-Christian songs)
    God is not a fuddy duddy stuck in a religious box of performance.

    God is about freedom of our hearts and minds.. and above all God is about forgiveness and salvation.

    IF even one of those students danced 'seductively' with an evil heart of contempt for Godliness… God can take it. God forgives and so should we if we want His forgiveness.

    The biggest stumbling block that keeps the world from wanting Christ is Christians who think by their performance they attain perfection.

    For ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL have come short of the glory of God.

    On your very best most pious day you deserve hell. DESERVE HELL

    Salvation is the free gift of God lest ANY MAN should boast.

    How then will the world know we are Christians ???


    Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

    Love never fails.


  56. DavidC says:

    Im tired of people saying that we boast on our salvation because we're agaisnt some dance stlye or "fun" that the world came out with. WE are not boasting, we all deserve hell! But those who separate themselves for the Lord are his. He called us out to be Holy as our God is Holy. Im not saying we can not have fun but we got to rememeber we are still in the flesh, so it is easy to get deceived because of our hearts.
    Yes! The Lord called us to love but with the love of the Father not of this world.
    As to the world knowing we are Christians, the world wont accept us with loving arms but will hate us because we believe in God who loves us, but also is just, Who will judge the world.

    God Bless


    • Shafawn says:

      I would be happier with it if it were Christian songs the youth play when they dance and act out. But I don't have a problem with young people goofing off and having fun at church .. dancing.. shouting.. jumping up and down.. that's all in good fun.
      If they can't have fun at church they will have fun somewhere else that will probably lead to heart break.

      And it's hard to look at a 3 min video and make a huge sweeping judgment of every church and youth situation.

      As always the church swings on a pendulum that gets out of balance one way only to over correct and swing out of balance the other way. Let's please don't do that.

      Different people come from different depths of a Christian foundation. Some may have no foundation at all. Some may have only religion and not relationship. Some have a solid foundation and are only there having fun and dancing around means nothing more than that to them.
      I think God is fun. He's alive. He is cool. He has a good sense of humor and probably a good dancer 🙂

      Do the youth need direction and guidance to keep the fun balanced and spiritually healthy? Of course.
      We should pray they are able to channel all that youthful energy and dance towards Christian songs and let them alone to enjoy themselves. I pray they remember the words to the Christian songs they hear and never stop dancing.
      I am 50 and I still dance (when nobody is around) hehe

      Man looks on the outward appearance but only God can judge the heart.


  57. Rose Vosburgh says:

    'I think God is fun. He’s alive. He is cool. He has a good sense of humor and probably a good dancer'

    Yeah, we all just need to lighten up, live and let live, go with the flow…stop being so fussy and uptight. God is just a big fun chummy guy in the sky.

    Some verses to meditate on:

    "Our God is a consuming fire". Hebrews 12:29

    …'work our your salvation with fear and trembling'..Philippians 2:12b

    To the church of Laodicea: "I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need of nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent." Rev 3:15-19
    "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!" Rev 4:8b

    "Be ye holy, for I am holy." 1Peter 1:16

    "From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty." Rev 19:15

    So He is just hooping it up watching this pathetic display? He is just fine with it? Sadly, our present day view of God is a very low. We need to read what the Bible says…how it describes God…not only a God of great love, but also a God of terrifying wrath who is coming soon to judge the world. (He will judge Christians too..we will each give an account for every idle word, action and our works tried in the fire…a very sobering thought). He is The Most High God (!)…awesome in His power, freightening in His holiness. We may soon get a taste of His judgment as it descends on the American church when He begins to separate and weed out the goats from the true sheep. Christians, of all people, are supposed to understand who God is. And because we do, it should affect how we look and act… different from the rest of the world rather than copying every latest craze of our godless society.

    Sorry…I just can't imagine the God of the Bible hooping it up, dancing, and being 'cool'. He is not like us…He is so much higher He is beyond our comprehension. Our young people are being cheated when we don't teach them who God really is…yes, a God of love, but also a righteous, holy God who is coming soon to judge the world…and believe me, it will be no laughing matter.


    • Shafawn says:

      What did YOU .. YOU personally do when you were a teenager? What did YOU do with your life since then?

      Have you EVER sung along with a radio song that wasn't Christian?
      Know ANY words to secular music?
      Have you EVER danced?

      Do you watch movies that aren't Christian?

      Do you watch tv at all?

      Have you ever laughed at a joke that wasn't Christian? not talking about a sexually immoral joke… just a joke that wasn't Christian.

      Has a beer ever passed your lips? or a glass of wine?

      Are all these things sin? I don't think they are.

      Don't be white washed tombs either .. put heavy burdens on others that you yourself couldn't lift with one finger … eh?

      And don't give me your holier than though… I read the Bible every day and volunteer at least 40 hours a week to community service helping others outside my paid job. I love Jesus and I go to church. I'm almost 50 and I dance!
      Is square dancing a sin too? Or just the type of dance you don't personally approve of? And no I don't square dance.. but I know people who do and I applaud them for it!


      Jesus performance on the cross is the ONLY reason I am saved and HE alone maintains my salvation.. I CANNOT maintain it and neither can you and neither can anyone else. And that is the message the world needs. That is freedom.


      • Rose Vosburgh says:

        You are putting words into my mouth. I never said a person can or must maintain their own salvation. But, just as I quoted to you above, the Word of God does tell us to 'work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12b) and to 'give dligence to make our calling and election sure. (2 Peter 1:10) We are not saved by works nor do we maintain our salvation by works…BUT, the EVIDENCE of salvation IS works..which is what James addressed in his book.

        We live in a secular world and not everything secular is necessarily wrong. BUT as Christians we should learn to discern those things that are not honoring to a holy God and, because we put His interests first, we make choices not to engage in certain activities. Do I drink a beer once in a while? Actually, no, because my family has been devastated by the abuse of alcohol…death of a loved one by a drunk driver, loss of another to alcoholism, and another afflicted with fetal alcohol syndrome. With all the devastation it has done to my family, I will not touch even a drop. Is it a sin for a Christian to drink a But it may be an even better testimony to the world to abstain considering all the harm it causes in our society. But, no, I would not condemn a Christian who felt they have the liberty to drink a beer. Of course not!

        The problem today is that the church has become so intertwined with the world that it no longer has the ability to discern what is holy and unholy behavior. Instead of preaching the gospel, we have tried to bring people into the church by appealing to their flesh and their felt needs. All it has done is create a whole bunch of false converts and brought the world into the church so we can no longer tell the difference between the church and the world…as seen in these videos.

        "Don’t be white washed tombs either .. put heavy burdens on others that you yourself couldn’t lift with one finger … eh?"

        There we go again…another pharisee comparison whenever we try to engage these seeker folks in a thoughtful discussion. No one is placing a heavy burden on anyone here. We are simply engaging in a discussion and you are free to disagree. But we are trying to get you to think about the holiness of God and the kind of worship He demands and deserves. 'These poor teens just need to let off steam and be able to express themselves.' What about God and what He wants and requires? If you treat these teens like children, what you will get is childish behavior. They are old enough to handle solid food and we should be giving it to them.

        I made reference to these videos before. Please take a few minutes and watch them. In the first video, Paul Washer explains why he felt he had to preach his shocking message. You need to hear this before you just write us all off here as holier than thou pharisees. We have lost our high view of God and become like the world. Listen to what Paul Washer has to say to young people today…this is what they need, not silly dance fests in the church. They can and should be challenged to give their all for God… not be treated like or cottled to like babies.

        Paul Washer: The Background behind his Shocking Message to Teens:

        Paul Washer's Shocking Message to Teens:


      • Shafawn says:

        Children and teens are not mature Christians. They just aren't. There are many many adult Christians who are babies in diapers spiritually constantly getting offended and gossiping and spreading contention and then getting mad at the church when it blows up in their faces.. that's a baby Christian. In my understanding a mature Christian is living to help and reach others with the good news of salvation. Leading people to Jesus in prayer. Getting involved where they are on their level. Become all things for all men .. that we might reach some.

        As far as the shocking video. I didn't see anything shocking about it. It was basically a preacher defending himself and his message because somebody apparently didn't like it.

        If you think that's shocking you'd never make it in my church 😛 Our pastors gets all over your toes and doesn't apologize even once. If your message is from Jesus you don't have to apologize for it. I don't have a problem with preaching the truth. I don't respond to judgmental criticism and condemnation but I do respond to the Word of God.

        As far as churches altogether getting more worldly and departing from the faith. I don't know. You may be right. We know before the man of perdition is revealed there will be a "great falling away". It IS going to come to that because the Bible says it will. Maybe we are seeing the beginnings of that now or how it comes about. I mean a falling away like people no longer meet in churches but in each other's homes.

        I believe in 20 years the rapture will already have taken place. We are certainly in the season aren't we.

        But to me all this is a separate issue and a different point. I've worked with the youth and I deal with lost people every day on my job and volunteer work. They don't care what you know until they know that you care and that really really is the truth. You can't introduce yourself and beat them over the head with a Bible and expect them to ask Jesus to come into their hearts.

        I've seen a girl go up to get saved with a pack of cigs hanging out of her back pocket. She was smoking outside before she came in. What if some pious Christian informed her we don't allow that on our property? She wouldn't have gotten saved that day. She may never have gotten saved. We're in a war and Christians can hinder salvation as much as nurture it.

        I've heard one of the most powerful and heart felt public prayers I ever heard from a youth with a multi-colored Mohawk, rings in his eyebrows and tattoos. He was praying for the lost in our community and the power of God was all over that young man. How many lost people will listen to that young man who wouldn't give you and me the time of day? What if some pious Christian informed him that his style is not Godly and he needs to change?

        This is my point. These young people have come into the church. There was a reason for that. God can use it to reach them if we have a heart of love to allow it. I'll grant you that EVERY single one of those youngsters in that video needs love. The ones who act out the most have received the most hurtful blows in life. You know this is true. They are wondering .. is God really real? Do Christians really care? Could they really love me?

        Can we?


      • Rose Vosburgh says:

        'Children and teens are not mature Christians. They just aren’t.'

        If they are taught the Word rather than entertained in their youth groups, teens and even children can grow and become more mature in their faith exhibiting real change in their lives…change leading to holiness that gives evidence of true conversion. But most youth groups today focus on making it fun, cool, and relevant with little or no real depth of Bible teaching to challenge them. Many come for fun, pray a prayer with no real understanding of the gospel, are then told and believe they are saved when they are not. And that is why these youth have no power to live any different than the rest of the world around them. Recent studies show that Christian young people are having pre-marital sex almost as much as non-Christian youth. Thirteen percent of Evangelical young women are having abortions . Obviously, something is wrong with the way we do youth ministry today. We are getting the lost to come in, but making false converts out of many. Are we teaching them what true repentance is? It is more than just regret or remorse. It is sorrow for breaking the heart of a holy God. The Bible says that only "godly (not selfish) sorrow" works toward repentance, and that unto real Salvation (2 Corinthians 7:10). I fear that repentance is often misrepresented to our young people. They come into our churches and their hearts are touched, they are emotionally moved, but they remain unchanged because they never truly repent as the Bible teaches.

        The example of a girl smoking before a church service and then getting saved does not relate to this argument. We don't expect non-Christians to act like Christians and, of course, we would not exclude that girl from attending church. Or the boy who wears piercings…or one who may be gay. All should be welcomed and treated with kindness whereever they are at… in the hopes they will hear the gospel message preached and get saved. But, once they get truly saved, then they will no longer want to live to please their flesh, but, out of love for Christ and in appreciation for all He has done for them, they will desire to become (just as the Bible teaches) slaves of Christ rather than of sin. It is a process and it doesn't happen overnight. We are all at various stages of maturity. But there should be some evidence of salvation, some conviction that the old ways must be abandoned for a holier lifestyle and one that is more pleasing to God. I am not talking about piercings or tatoos a person got while unsaved. I am talking about the behavior AFTER they are saved. We adults are the ones to challenge them to a holy lifestyle by our example. Approving of and even participating in this senual dance spectacle is irresponsible on the part of adults who are leading youth.

        I think part of the problem today is that we view church primarily as a place of attraction to the lost.. get them in to get them saved…as opposed to strengthening the saints to go out to the world to win the lost. So then church has to be more like the world to get the worldly kids to come in…lots of fun and entertainment which stunts the growth and potential of those who truly are saved. The NT church was established for the saints not for the lost. Can the lost get saved in church?…of course! But that is not the primary function of the church. When we lose sight of the church's main function, we lose the power of the gospel because it becomes too offensive…so we have to tweek it a little here and a little there to make it more palitable until it is watered down.

        Paul Washer was not defending himself in the first video. He was merely explaining the context of the message and why he had to preach as he did that night. And if you listened to what happened, it was a situation similar to the harlem shake taking place in a worship service. It got so rowdy, his wife was almost knocked down and church…during 'worship'. I doubt very much that you did listen to the actual message. It WAS shocking and would not be tolerated in most seeker sensitive churches today. He was preaching to youth whom he knew were false converts…because of their behavior that evening. It was harsh, but it led to repentance and new birth for many in that audience who thought they were saved because they prayed a prayer with no real understanding of what it means to repent and turn from sin and trust in Christ alone..and to start the process of growing up in Him

        We will never agree so further discussion with you seems pointless. All I can say is what I know from my own experience. I came out of a seeker church where we had a very cool seeker friendly youth group that attracted many unchurched kids. Many made professions of faith during their high school years, but the sad reality is… most are not living for the Lord today. And that is evident in that they are shacking up with boyfriends/girlfriends, drinking, partying and living pretty much like the world around them. But…they would tell you empathically that they are saved…prayed the prayer…they are born again Christians.


    • Sharon W. says:

      I'm going to tag somewhat on your comment Rose. Maybe the deeper questions that need to be asked here by those of us who claim to be believers in Christ is "who are you really interested in pleasing? God or yourself?
      [Hebrews 11:6]

      What is the essence/nature of your walk of faith? Is it "new nature" or "old nature", "grace" or "corruption", "of the Spirit" or "of the flesh"? Romans 8:8 tells me "those who are in the flesh cannot please God".

      Sincere, authentic, examinations of ourselves before God is part of our faith walk. [2 Corinthians 13:5, 1 Corinthians 11:28]
      My chaverim, "Call a spade a spade"….If your walk of faith is more about pleasing you?…then say so. If it's more about pleasing God than say so.
      Christ is our Rock & Foundation….Gold, silver & precious stones will stand the test of building on that foundation, wood, hay & stubble won't.
      1 Corinthians 3:11-13


      • Shafawn says:

        You guys aren't getting it at all. This isn't about 'the proper idea of how a Christian should behave if he really loves God' …. these are KIDS

        It's about young people. Some who aren't even saved and don't know Jesus at all. Some of them have religious parents who aren't saved either. Some of them are saved and just following the crowd with a weak foundation living off momma's faith but nothing of their own developed. Some of them are Christians with a strong foundation and they aren't there to do anything negative or evil. They're just having a good time at church.

        The point is these are kids in our churches .. not in the street. They are every single one of them unique and precious and vastly special to God. He loves them just exactly the way they are and he is not in the business of bruising the tender reed.
        Their angels always behold the face of our father so you best be careful how you handle and treat them.

        We need to look at these kids like they are us. We are them…. in this world of hate and fear. We need to love them up and find ways to mentor them and give them a true foundation. I don't mean trying to find somebody else to do it .. I mean YOU. YOU … everyone who commented negatively on this thread.. mentor a child as if it were your own and demonstrate the love and mercy of Jesus. That's what God wants.

        Everyone who wags their tongue and their finger .. is going to cause these kids to turn away from the church and probably God. That would be far more grievous to God than a silly dance. Don't even bring up the dancing. Love on them and teach them the Word of God and PRAY for them.

        Love never fails. Let's try that for a change church. We're the only army in the world who kill our wounded for the sake of religion.

        Come to think of it .. technically .. it was religion that demanded Christ be crucified. They didn't like the way Jesus made them look.

        Let's be less religious and more loving.


  58. Shafawn says:

    The current Barna study indicates that nearly half of all Americans who accept Jesus Christ as their savior do so before reaching the age of 13 (43%), and that two out of three born again Christians (64%) made that commitment to Christ before their 18th birthday. One out of eight born again people (13%) made their profession of faith while 18 to 21 years old. Less than one out of every four born again Christians (23%) embraced Christ after their twenty-first birthday. Barna noted that these figures are consistent with similar studies it has conducted during the past twenty years.

    There is never a better time to reach the lost than before they are 21 years old. After that the statistical likelihood of salvation drops. Don't be the person that turns this young person away from the church and from God at an early age. This may be the best opportunity to become born again some of these kids will ever have their whole lifetime. Use this as an opportunity to reach them for Jesus.

    God can deal with it and the Holy Spirit will do His work on them and on us. Christianity has survived more than a dance.
    Look at
    1 Corinthians 15:29 Seeing what shall they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? why also are they baptized for the dead?

    What? Baptized for the dead? How did that get in there? We don't believe in being baptized for the dead! Yes the Christian church survived it. I'm not saying I believe in being baptized for the dead. My point is that there were beliefs in doing that in the very early church and the Holy Spirit corrected it. He didn't kick them out and Paul didn't kick them out or scold them or criticize them or tear down their belief. God uses whatever you have to build you up and give you more. He doesn't tear you down to nothing and kick you out to teach you a lesson in piety.


  59. Lenore Mays says:



  60. Rose Vosburgh says:

    To those who have defended the Harlem Shake in youth groups (and some who are not even bothered by it taking place in church sanctuaries) ….take a look at this video from Wretched TV.


    This is the Easter version of the Harlem Shake. Can you honestly still defend it as harmless fun?…when it makes light of and demeans Christ's death on the cross? Doesn't watching this make you cringe…even a little?!

    Are you really OK with this disgusting display in your quest to fill the church with goats? Will the goats really get saved through participating in this? Will it help them to understand the seriousness of their sin and their dire need of a Savior? Will they understand what the cross is really all about and the high cost Christ had to pay to secure our salvation? Or does it make the crucifixion of our Lord seem a light hearted thing to them?…fun?..even a joke?

    I think Todd called it correctly…'blasphemy', which is the direct result of….."aping the culture..inviting the world to come into our churches, hoping the world will come in because they think we are sooo cool. Time to stop with the trendiness and time to get our feet firmly planted again on the Rock." Amen, Todd. I hope the seeker sensitive movement will finally fizzle out as people wake up to the harm it is doing to the cause of Christ..that the end result is churches full of false converts and worldliness becoming so entrenched in our churches now that people seem completely oblivious to it….even defend it vehemently. When someone tries to lovingly discuss and expose what is happening, to warn, to exhort…they are labeled 'unloving', 'judgmental',' pharisaical', 'religious', and 'holier than thou', 'putting burdens on people too hard for them to bear'. Really? This is all the fruit of seeker sensitive.

    Are we finally getting it?!!!


    • Shafawn says:

      I think they are KIDS

      They need guidance and love… not freaking out and turning them away from God and the church forever.

      If it's Christian contemporary songs they dance to (we only got one clip of one incident) I think dancing is fine.

      If it's dancing to secular music at church .. then yeah I would think they need to be taught the reason we gather together. But I don't think we should freaking out and making them feel like trash. God corrects me with love and we need to do the same.
      God bless all. Done with this thread 🙂


      • Rose Vosburgh says:

        We ARE correcting with love. That is exactly what we are trying to do here. No one is condemning these young people. And they are not just KIDS as you continually call them. (Kids are little children…teens are young people approaching adulthood.)You underestimate these young people and their ability to understand the deeper things of God. They are old enough to understand the gravity of what Christ endured on the cross and to have the proper attitude of awe, reverence, deep gratitude, and respect. If we treat them as KIDS…that is exactly what they will remain…stuck in shallowness rather than growing to maturity in Christ.

        But what about the adults leading them in this?…and if not leading, then allowing this to occur? Where is their discernment, awe, reverence, respect for the cross of Christ..that they could approve of and even encourage a display such as this…on Easter, the holiest of days for Christians?


  61. Sharon W. says:

    Kind of odd that we, as a society, call our children "kids"….considering the formal definition of the word "KID" means 1) a "YOUNG GOAT" 2) The young of a similar animal such as an antelope.


  62. J says:

    Dear Lord I ask that you guard my heart, spirit, and mind today in everything I do and say. Amen


  63. Nick S. says:

    This isn't surprising at all… Churches have stopped preaching the whole Gospel and have preached a secular me focused humanistic Oprah message with Biblical language attached. The sin of the fathers have been passed down to the sons… The whole Church must repent for allowing this!!!


  64. Michael Lay says:

    WOW!!!!! This is not good at all I've read a couple of comments, and i am so confused why people just don't see what is truly wrong here… I am not perfect, I make my fair share of mistakes… But I still know that in the end, I will have to answer to God for my sins.. This right here, for each church, Christian College, whatever Pastor is the head of them, will have to answer for this… This is not godly… And those that say that they can use this to reach others for Christ, are truly decieved… This is what satan wants you to think, that it's ok to do this, that it's totally harmless… But guess what? WRONGGGGGG!!! This is giving satan an opening into which he can use to bigger things in that church… I'm sorry if you don't believe me, look at the Catholic Church… So to those that think that is cool and that there is nothing wrong with it, I pray and hope that God has mercy on your souls…. Because disciples just don't do this.. Never have and never will…. And you can't point to anything in the Bible that says that this is ok… So please stop doing this… Pastor's step up to plate, and take back your Church's!!!! Before it's to late… And when that happens, you will have to answer for all the souls in that Church..I pray that that will not happen..


  65. Sospression says:

    That almost brought a tear to my eyes


  66. Austin says:

    Darrel, you are speaking by the truth of Spirit, not by wisdom of man. Logically, there is nothing wrong going on in these activities. No one is being hurt, kids are having fun, laughing, enjoying themselves. And to bring attention to it as something borne of evil is offensive to the very nature of fun as it appears harmless to the eyes. The Cross is also an offense.

    Christ was the fulfillment of the Law, He did not discard or remove the Law. These actions are against the teachings of the Law. The Redeemed, the washed in the Blood Saints are saved from the condemnation of the Law, by grace. The heart is changed, the creature is new and reborn in Spirit. The things of the world, and even its very appearance and desire to reproduce it's entertainment, is flesh, not Spirit. In order to worship Christ, we must do so in Spirit and in Truth. We then, with the understanding of Spiritual things then abstain from the very appearance of evil. You will know them by their Fruits, what is the fruit of this dance/craze? So far: indecent exposure, actions not suitable for a child to see("The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!") And also causing division within the Church. The enemy is very present, the hearts of men chase after the things of the world and the things of the flesh.
    Christians are called to righteousness, to be holy, to be set apart, and not to conform to the ways of the world. Be merciful and forgiving with love as was Christ, but do not forget His actions when the temple was made a mockery of by the buying and selling of worldly things! Today, we the Church individually are the temple of Christ. This behavior is a mockery of His Holiness within us!


  67. l says:

    May I just say this:

    I know many men and woman who have gone to college and studied, but aren't doing well biblically. I also know many men and woman who have not studied at university/college, but run circles around some pastors.

    While college degrees in and of themselves are not bad, college is not what makes one 'smart' about the Lord. I have a very good friend that knows more than any pastor's I know. Takes God's Word seriously. I have another who is a missionary, who was gifted by God on a less than 4 year degree.

    I'm not demeaning a bible college education. I'm presently doing so myself, but that is absolutely no means a prognosticator of biblical discernment or intelligence. I will use just two people although there are so many to use, to show that:

    Rob Bell
    Brian McLaren

    Both are huge heretics. Both might even be considered outside if you consider their viewpoints on Christ's atonement for our sins, as well as other points.


  68. Steve says:

    "Pastor’s step up to plate, and take back your Church’s!!!! Before it’s to late… And when that happens, you will have to answer for all the souls in that Church..I pray that that will not happen.."

    It is too late, because mom and dad, and grandma and grandpa have chosen kiddies fun over Christ, crusified and resurrected. But don't worry, it'll get worse.


  69. vince barnett says:

    So True Sharon, The church has lost its power and influence in an effort to be more "palatable". Sad state of the End times of the prophecy of the great falling away!


  70. vince barnett says:

    Amen Darrel……………………pray for america.


  71. vince barnett says:



  72. Mark says:

    How are Christian churches and colleges shaken? If you have faith the size of a mustard seed you can move mountains. Therefore, why do you run in fear if someone is oppositional? It is one way to look Christian, but it's a whole other idea to live out the life God illustrates. God doesn't tell us to beg for money, donations, hide behind an IRS tax code. God doesn't direct us to go into the world and sell CD's by promoting pseudo Christianity. God calls us to go into ALL nations…

    Christian's have failed. Other religions have decided to come in and be the stronger opponent. While yes, we need to trust God for everything… God provides us the tools and despite the fact God may not directly answer a prayer; moving forward in a direction that he leads while waiting is also due dilligence.

    So, should we be surprised that churches have gone south? No. I mean, what pastor would knowingly say to his church "you are a bunch of people who come here because you want to be #1" You are here because you want to feel special. People go to church because it is one opportunity to say "I'm Christian and I have the opportunity to hold my volunteer role above your head." It's called Christian status.

    The neat thing about History is that it repeates itself, over and over. The sad part about Christianity is that, we forget what a history book is…


    • Sharon W. says:

      Interesting comment Mark and well said.
      Maybe…we, the church, need a Matthew 16:24 reminder every so often.


  73. Noreen says:

    I think that if one is not aware of how evil this is, he or she is living in delusion. We must be circumspect in our behavior. Also, would you want The Lord to find you lacking when you face Him?


  74. Noreen says:

    Monica, God is not the author of confusion. Perhaps a meeting with some prayer warriors asking The Lord to dispel whatever confusion you are experiencing will help. If you ask God for wisdom in these matters, He will provide it. Please think seriously about this. If your husband was a pastor and left because he was not satisfied and challenged The Word, then some soul searching would be in order. We are all sinners in need of a Savior. We also know that the appearance of evil is spoken of in the Scriptures.


  75. Noreen says:

    Monica, you are acting rebellious in the face of The Word of God. Please rethink what it is you are extrapolating about on this post lest you bring shame and chastisement from God upon yourself. You are shaking your fist in God's face. You do not want to bring upon yourself judgment by being rebellious.


  76. Noreen says:

    Jared and Monica are cut from the same cloth, it appears. Rebellion has no place in the Body of Christ. You both need to rethink what it is that you are stating. You need much prayer.


  77. Noreen says:

    Sharon, you are correct. Laodicea is active in most of today's churches and obviously in some of the commenters today.


  78. Noreen says:

    Monica, you are obviously angry at those who caused you and your husband to leave the ministry. Was there truth in what they were telling you? You need to examine yourself and your salvation closely. Read Ephesians. Stop making a mockery of The Word. Shame…..


  79. Noreen says:




  80. Noreen says:

    Jared and Monica,

    You both sound like atheists to me and are baiting and mocking true believers. Get thee behind me, Satan!


  81. Noreen says:


    You are no pastor's wife. You are acting as a satanic messenger for your father, the devil, the serpent. Everyone has tried to be gentle with you but point out your error, but instead, you use the tactics of your father the devil. We shake the dust from our feet after leaving your door. I refuse to throw pearls to swine.


  82. Noreen says:


    Pride is what caused Lucifer to fall.


  83. Noreen says:

    Chelsea, Jesus told Peter "Get thee behind me, Satan." Jesus loved Peter. I think strong actions and argument deserve strong replies. As for me, i will stand up strongly for The Word. PERIOD.


  84. Noreen says:

    Absolutely agree with you on what you wrote, LJ.


  85. Noreen says:

    Darrel, All true believers, wheat vs. chaff, know what you say is true and the time for separation in the Rapture will be happening soon. Maranatha.


  86. Noreen says:

    Darrel, you did a good deed today by driving the satanically inspired poster from posting any more satanic drivel. The Word of God is a two-edged sword.


  87. Noreen says:

    Jared, you are not a Christian and we can tell by your words that contradict and try to divide Christians.


  88. Noreen says:

    Jared: Self-righteousness is your main problem.


  89. Noreen says:

    It is the heart, Jared, not the head. Unless you accept Christ as Savior as a little child, you will be lost and appear to be. Bible colleges, just like all other colleges, have apostate teachers. Pity you. For all your studying, you have learned everything that is unimportant. Try praying AFTER you ask Jesus for salvation.


  90. Ann says:

    You problem is you don't need religion. Religion is the cause of much of our problems. What you need is a relationship with Jesus Chirst. Ask him to come into your heart and be your Lord and Savior and you'll have it all. He is the way the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by him.


  91. Ann says:

    Music creates an atmosphere. It can be one of worship or one of the flesh. These newer modes of music with their pagan beats and such create one of the flesh. It's obvious if you just watch how the people react to the music.


    • Noreen says:


      It is good to see someone else write the truth. Remember, Lucifer was the original musician. Instruments were built into his body by Our Heavenly Father. That is why Satan uses music for evil.


  92. SLIMJIM says:

    Sad to see the churches today become so worldly


  93. Brad says:

    Monica, I am wondering why you're defending this Harlem Shake nonsense so fervently. Tell me, isn't church supposed to be about equipping the saints for acts of ministry, and teaching us about the Lord and how to draw near to him? Don't you see how this is foolishness and a waste of time? At the very least, it apes the world, a world we are not to be conformed to according to Scripture. I wold even say that it is carnal. Didn't I see a girl lifting up her shirt to expose her bra in the video? This is unchaste behavior.

    There's nothing wrong with dancing, and some churches even incorporate dance routines in their worship. But this stuff is different, it's very worldly. Shaking a gyrating one's hip suggestively has no place in the house of God.


  94. Brad says:

    Jared, how is it illogical to believe that the Word of God is intelligible in the English? One need not know the original languages to understand it, though this is helpful for a deeper understanding. In today's information age, the lexicons are available so that the average student can gain much understanding using just an English Bible and these tools. Even so, Scripture is still fully capable of being understood in the English. Didn't God choose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise? Why would he make it so that only the wise and learned could understand his Word?

    You're too quick, I believe, to disregard Amy as a serious contributor in the discussion. She has made some very good points. Also, doesn't the Word of God exhort us to consider others as better than ourselves (Php 2:3).

    With all due respect, your main argument is not a biblical one, but a mere assumption that an "us and them" mentality is wrong for the Church. This is not a belief founded on Scripture, for it teaches us that the tares grow up with the wheat, and that false doctrines and false teachers would attack Christ's church. The Word exhorts us to contend for the faith and to expose the deeds of darkness (Jud 3; Eph 5:11; 1Co 5:12-13).

    What I don't understand is how you are unable to discern the lewd nature of this craze. For crying out loud, there was a girl lifting her shirt in one part of the video, not to mention the carnal hip gyrating nature of the dance! It looks just like the dance clubs I used to visit as a young man looking to pick up girls. This type of carnal dancing has no place in a house of Christian worship.


  95. Brad says:

    Jared, wouldn't you agree that we can judge a movement without having to say that everybody who is taken in by it has sinful intentions? People can be deceived by this type of stuff, and that is why Christians need to be discriminating because our enemy prowls about like a hungry lion, seeking whom he may devour. How ironic that this song ends with a lion's roar and begins with a chant that means "with the terrorists!"

    This dance, in my way of thinking, is strange fire. It is worship that is not prescribed by Scripture. Paul spent a lot of time in his epistles outlining what worship in the church should look like, and what church structure should be. How does this silliness glorify Christ at all? i have even seen one video where there is an irreverent display of a man on a cross. The people dancing and gyrating around him makes me think of what must have been going on in the spirit realm with the demons. That, combined with the sensual nature of the dance should be enough for any believer to judge this craze as unprofitable and not worthy of a Christian worship service.


  96. Brad says:

    Yes Rose, thank you for your insightful posts. I wholeheartedly agree, sister. This type of foolishness will bring nobody to Christ.


  97. Suzette says:

    all I can say is WOW… it saddens me how people talk and react to each other, how judgmental people are whether Christian or not. We are not supposed to judge, if you don't like what they are doing don't participate. The church is not for the perfect or the professing perfect person. Even Christians sin. whether its a white lie or something else. I'm not saying i agree with the Harlem shake… the music alone scares me, but there is much about this generation that scares me, and yet to preach, slam fist, tell them they are going to hell serves no purpose. The Holy Spirit moves, and the best thing that any of us can do is pray about it, and pray about the youth leaders and the participants. i know what the book says, I know what God says, i know what I will participate in and won't… but I also know its not my job to judge everyone else, there is one far greater than me to do that.


  98. Denis Shepherd says:

    Monica, please tell; how many flies are needed in your soup before you throw it away? At 76 I still love fun and there is a huge variety of ways to enjoy life without dropping my Christian standard. If you are to be respected by a worthy male friend he needs to know that you are worthy to be respected.
    If you were in my family I would still love you despite your opinion. Perhaps you havent thaught it through. Denis


  99. Jeff says:

    I have a question to ask you? Can you explain too me what 1 Corinthians 5:12 means.
    Thank you.


  100. KAREN says:



  101. KAREN says:

    Amen sister,, even come Elohim Yeshua come,, we are vexed at this insanity that dares to take your word in there mouth..there is no fear of Yahveh left in this whore church.. but soon there will be and then they will all find out that they have been worshipping another Jesus


  102. Claire says:

    Why so ugly to Sharon, Monica? Why do you not receive the Word of God?


  103. Claire says:

    Monica, all I've seen you and Jared say to sincere Christians has been harsh, judgmental statements. You have no right to criticize anybody.


  104. Claire says:

    Excellent treatise, Sharon! God bless you for your concern. 🙂


  105. Claire says:

    Monica, I truly pray you will be delivered of all bitterness. God bless you.


  106. Claire says:

    I've known children and teens who were far more mature in their love and obedience to the Lord than many, many older people. YOu may recall that Paul told Timothy (who was very young) to be an example to older people in the church. Being young is no excuse for being silly and worse.


  107. Nathan says:

    I was raised in a Christian family myself, and had associated myself with Christianity until learning more of its history out side of the Bible. The "church" has fallen so far from what God and Jesus intended. They do not love fellow humans as they claim, as is commanded in John 15:12, which I take to mean love all humanity; they only love fellow Christians. The Crusades for the Holy Land, and slaughter and enslavement of Native Americans and Pagan Irish after the discovery of the New World are evidence of this. Christians will be the fastest to condemn, and slowest to forgive or accept those who are different than them.

    The Church supports the destruction of the environment and animal species wrought by our industry, claiming it is allowed by Genesis in God's mandate to master the world. God meant for us to be caretakers, not reckless destroyers. But what we are doing, and the Church supporting, is not only eating the Apple of Eden all over again, but cutting the whole tree down to make the table and bench we eat the remaining apples on.

    The Church, since the death of Christ, has also been a strong advocate of sexism. All priests are men, there are no priestesses in Christianity (nuns don't count). Until the Civil Rights movement a respectable Christian woman was still and quiet.

    These reasons and others, actions of Christians, have made me feel an alien and have by going against the peaceful principles of forgiveness and acceptance that Jesus taught forced me away from Christianity as an organized religion.

    I have been researching a bit lately looking for beliefs both ancient and modern that more closely align to how I feel Jesus wanted us to act towards each other and the earth. Though Christianity remains my roots, I have detached myself from the Church and the fundamentals of my faith have become this:

    There is an ultimate being, creator of the universe and all of life (and I'm a scientist too, isn't that odd!) whom is a symbol of all, whom humanity can never understand (so stop pretending you understand an infinite being, Christians).

    God made man caretakers of the world, not its 'masters', and we are to ensure the well being of earth and animals by husbandry;

    God gave man free will, and no man has the right to force his will on another, as this is counter to God's decision of our construction.

    Most, if not all, religions stem from the same creator and are uniquely developed based on the people and religion in question's culture, geography, and level of development or understanding; consider nearly all religions have their own view of creation, though with many similarities. For polytheistic religions different deities represent different aspects, moods, behaviors, or characteristics for God. Example; Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are three different ways of practicing essentially the same religion; and Christianity has how many drastically different denominations that can't agree on anything?!

    Thus, respect nature and fellow man, as we are all creations of God. Worship as you will, and allow others to do the same, as they essentially worship the same God, just in their own way.
    Matthew 7:12 and John 13:34

    I hope some will consider my words and treat their fellow humans, and all of God's creations better and with more open mindedness and acceptance. But, I am ready for the close-minded backlash that is an organized, close-minded Church. For any who got this far, thanks. Take care, and God (however you choose to view) bless.


    • Kevin Scott says:

      Your post sounds like the parroting of teachings in colleges today.

      Your professors at the atheistic indoctrination center did a number on you.

      Your statement about all religions are essentially the same, and that " most if not all religions stem from the same creator", disqualifies you as a serious thinker.

      You have not done much research on other religions.
      A simple google search of orgins of other religions would clearly show that NO religion stem from the same creator.

      All false religions have one thing in common though . That you must work, or earn your way to Heaven.

      True Christianity is the ONLY religion that teaches going to Heaven is a free gift , if you receive Christ and become born again.

      The bible teaches that you must receive Christ in you heart and be born again, with the renewing of your mind.

      Read the bible for yourself instead of reading writings by heretics about the bible.

      One last thing, I am always amazed by how liberals think they are so open minded and non judgemental, as they sit in judgement about others.


  108. Raymond Enrico says:

    What a sick state the Church is in today. Count numbers, be sensitive, don't shake anybody s doctrine even tho it is wrong,.
    The Golden Calf award goes out to these pastors that allow this,They will answer to God almighty, He is a Holy God. Indulge the flesh, Jesus is around the corner, He will say , Enough is enough!. He is coming for His Bride not a golden calf award winner.
    God help us all. We the Church are bringing God's Judgement on America. These seeker sensitive, 40 days of this and that, the emergent church, The Joel Olsteens, The Rick Warrans, The word of faith, the harlem shake, Is all going to bring us down, we are no better than the Church world before the reformation, I think even worse. Let Jesus add to the Church today , NOT MAN'S WAYS. Preach the cross, Jesus Gave His life for us. To save us from hell, why would we do things to hinder His work in life's of others. flesh will never inherit the KINGDOM OF GOD. We are supposed to have died with Christ and be born again. Are you?
    some Pastors are not even saved but have a good grip on religion.
    God hates religion.


  109. l Charles Allen says:

    What I have to say is directed at not less than 85% of so called christians in South Africa today, who walk around with a mask of righteousness, but behind that mask one will find a spiritual liar, thief and murderer. Who do they think they are to walk around pointing finger to those who live their lives outside the church? They condemn and they kill, they boast and they roast, claiming that they are children of God. Do they really think that non-christians are brain dead and do not know what is written in the Bible? There are more demonic christians walking around, than what there are sincere christians who live a life of an active christian. Just by taking a look at uncountable lives of the poor and the needy who are crying out daily, one cannot dispute the fact that the majority christians are the children of the Devil, and are not the children of God. Counted at a robot in a busy intersection one day, in a time of 6 hours there were 82 cars with stickers of confessing that they christians pasted on the back of their cars. All of these 82 cars ignored the plea of a young homeless couple that were asking for something to eat. Along came a black Taxi, and one of the passengers reached out of the window and gave the young couple a R20. Note. Well this and much more proves my statement about christians today, not to mention the good work the Gift of the Givers are doing, which belong to the Moslims. What are Christians doing, except for condemning the nonbelievers. I am not afraid of challenging the christians about their pathetic and ungodly behavior at all, they will not know where to hide their faces once I unmask them. This challenge will be based on the Word of God, and believe me many many so called christians will stand ashamed.


  110. Petieshell says:

    Deception is rampant. Another thought is just being in that environment does not make one a disciple no more than being in a garage makes me a car. Behavior is a manifestation of identity and they are more identified with the world in this moment. Sure pray they awaken and come out of Babylon!


  111. T from Texas says:

    We as christians….people who have accepted Jesus Christ as our Saviour and purpose to live our lives accoding to the Holy Bible, should be set apart. Sorry but these videos do not reflect being "set apart from the world". We are to love everyone, however, we are to keep away from even the appearance of evil. Sadly, many churches and christians are deceived. Satan is after all, the master of deception. Thankfully, there is the ONE TRUE GOD, who is full of mercy, forgiveness, loves everyone and does not want to see anyone perish.


  112. jetty says:

    THE BODY OF BELIEVERS BETTER wake up.this Harlem shake and all
    This sensuality of the carnal mind is enmity against romans 8.


  113. jerry says:

    Should been jerry not jetty lol


  114. Johnny Ward says:

    A lot of Christian college students will be doing the "Tribulation Shake" after their much ballyhooed "Pre-Tribulation Rapture" fails to show up before the Antichrist does. For some shakes right now, Google "Pretrib Rapture Stealth," "Pretrib Rapture Pride" and "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty."


  115. Tariq Masih says:

    Dearest Friends,

    I am not be popular, but I have nice friends, I may not be rich, but I have what I need. I may not be liked by many, but love those who matter. I am a christian. You can ridicule me. You can torture me. You can kill me but you cannot change my mind. I belong to Pakistan village, My faith works by thanking God in Christ, Please pray for us I believed that prayer can heal a broken hearts, home, life Or relationship, Prayer is the key of Heaven, but faith unlocked the door. Prayer is the important activity in Christianity .Please pray for us ( Church Building, outreach people , and needy people )


    • Claire says:

      God bless you, Tariq! What a blessing it is to hear from you here. Your command of English is excellent. I will indeed pray for you, for believers in Pakistan and all your needs. God (Emmanuel) is with you. He will never leave you or forsake you. You have many brothers and sisters all around the world. 🙂


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